Intro

Dr. Dean 0:12

Hello and welcome to The Broken Pack™, a podcast focused on giving adult survivors of sibling loss, a platform to share their stories and to be heard. Something that many sibling loss survivors state that they never have had. Sibling Loss is Misunderstood™. The Broken Pack™ exists to change that and to support survivors. I'm your host, Dr. Angela Dean. In today's episode, I spoke with Kate about losing her brother, Larry, in a tragic, unexpected accident involving a scooter and a Pittsburgh pothole. We talk about how much she admired her brother and the devastation that she has felt since losing her brother and what that has meant for her identity. Take a listen. Thanks for coming on today. How did you want to introduce yourself to the audience?

Kate Chertik 1:09

My name is Katelyn Chertik. I found out about this group after my brother Larry passed away last year. I'm, 32 born and raised in Pittsburgh. I love this city. I would say a little bit about who I am, but I feel like I lost who I was. I feel like I'm currently rebuilding who I am, if that makes sense. So honestly, I have no idea how to introduce myself anymore.

Dr. Dean 1:31

Yeah, I think a valid point is that your identity was very much wrapped up in being Larry's sister for a long time.

Kate Chertik 1:38

Yes.

Dr. Dean 1:40

Is he older or younger?

About Larry

Kate Chertik 1:42

Older. He was older by four years, but we were so close and so similar that honestly, I just told people we were twins,

Dr. Dean 1:52

So four years difference but he was always there for you, until he, unfortunately, wasn't.

Kate Chertik 1:58

Yes.

Dr. Dean 2:00

Before we talk about losing him, though, I was curious what you want people to know about him.

Kate Chertik 2:05

There's so many things to know. Larry was so much larger than life, so much fun and brought happiness to so many people. He was one of those infectious souls where as soon as you met him, you loved him. Friends with everybody. He walked in a room and he owned it. And that's probably why he was always great at sales and why he worked in sales. But now he was just a phenomenal person, a phenomenal brother, phenomenal son, uncle to my daughter. It's hard because I wish I could just talk about him all day, but I've gotten so used to over the last almost 15 months, keeping quiet. And I'm sure, with your own grief that it's like, people don't really want to hear about it. It just makes them feel awkward. even still, if I bring them up in conversation, cause I catch myself still talking about him, like he's here. people just shy away or they change the subject and their discomfort is just written all over their face. And so I just changed the topic.

Dr. Dean 3:02

The good news is, I would like to hear more about him, so you don't have to feel that way either in this conversation or if we talk again, you can reach out, Tell me all about Larry.

Kate Chertik 3:12

Yeah. He was just funny, goofy, so smart. of the party, as I said, when he was in Penn State and his fraternity, he was the social chair and he was so good at it that he actually got their fraternity shut down. was, yes, it was like a month before they all graduated and it was a alumni weekend and they said no parties. And so Larry invited Wiz Khalifa up and Wiz Khalifa performed in the frat house that weekend.

Dr. Dean 3:43

not just a party, but also a celebrity party.

Kate Chertik 3:47

Yes. Yes. He, Wiz Khalifa's, tour manager actually was in the same fraternity with Larry. So they were good friends. But yeah, that just goes to show a little bit how Larry is.

Dr. Dean 4:00

That's fun. That sounds like a good memory. Did you, were you up there for that or?

Kate Chertik 4:05

No. So when he was up at Penn State, his freshman year was my freshman year of high school. So I did get to go up and travel with my dad and get to

Larry & Kate: Best Friends, Siblings

Kate Chertik 4:14

see him.

Dr. Dean 4:14

You mentioned that you were pretty close, that you introduced him as your twin. How was your your relationship? How would you describe that?

Kate Chertik 4:23

Very close. and it's almost sad because I realized that more so retrospectively after he passed. it's one of those things that you don't realize how, deeply intertwined you are with somebody until they're gone. And I've even had like Aunts and Uncles come back and they're like, yeah, your bond is special. I just feel like we dealt with a lot when we were younger, surrounding my parents divorce. So we've just always been close. You can ask anybody that was close with me. If you knew me, you knew Larry, whether that was me talking about him, whether that was my friends hanging out with him. and I found out through his friends afterwards that it was very much the same for him. I had people messaging me after they found out on Facebook and they're like, Larry, literally never shut the fuck up about you and your daughter. He was so proud of you, so proud of your daughter. Yeah, that was my best friend. genuinely, so much of me is him. My laugh, the way I talk, I even went to college for the same thing that he did, because I just wanted to follow in his footsteps.

Dr. Dean 5:21

What was that?

Kate Chertik 5:22

Marketing. And I don't even use it. I'm in finance, but it was just like, it was just like he had a marketing company. And the goal was for me to go for digital marketing and work for him. And. Both of us work together and come up with these different business ideas and retire our parents, take care of them.

Dr. Dean 5:42

Mm hmm.

Kate Chertik 5:43

I'm pretty sure I'm even a tomboy because of him. I, Growing up with brothers, especially, but yeah, so much of who I am was wrapped up in who Larry was.

Other Family Dynamics

Dr. Dean 5:53

Yeah. Do you have other siblings?

Kate Chertik 5:55

I have a younger, a younger brother. He's technically my half brother once my mom remarried with my stepdad. Unfortunately, we're not close. and he wasn't necessarily close either with Larry. He after college, moved to Chicago, kept to himself. since the funeral, I've only talked to him twice, and that was Thanksgiving and Christmas. So it's been hard. But, I hate to say this because some people genuinely have now become the only sibling, but it very much feels like I'm the only sibling left. And I'm sure my little brother does feel that in a sense too, but we didn't have the magical moment that some people might've hoped for this brought us together and granted he's still pretty young. I'm pretty young, 32, so it could still happen, but unfortunately I will never have that bond with Michael the way I did with Larry.

Dr. Dean 6:45

hmm, That makes sense because you grew up in the same house with the same parents and then, like you said, the divorce brought you closer, whereas you didn't have that with Michael,

Kate Chertik 6:56

Yes. Yeah. and we were just, Larry and I were raised the same way, but like Michael was raised a little bit differently because of my stepdad and not in a bad way, but Larry and I went through the trenches. Even on our 15th birthdays, my mom took both of us to go get our worker's permit and we both had a job by 15, whereas my little brother, she was a little bit more laxed with, and so we were raised more similarly than Michael was to us.

Dr. Dean 7:23

So did your relationship change at all when you became adults?

Kate Chertik 7:27

Me and Larry?

Dr. Dean 7:29

yep.

Kate Chertik 7:30

Yes, definitely closer. There was actually a point before I bought this house three years ago that Larry and I lived together. So it was difficult. When he graduated high school in 2006, he went off to state college. So he was middle of the state. He wasn't necessarily around as much as I would have liked him to. And after college, Larry left. Larry went down to Disney World to do an internship. He lived in Kissimmee for about four years, and then he traveled for a living for two and a half. So he really just moved back to Pittsburgh in 2017. And. I was definitely proud of him. I was proud of him for getting out of Pittsburgh for getting out of the state and doing what he loved. He worked for Deloitte and he was a secret shopper for United Airways. So he had to audit their flights. So he got to travel for free. he visited 23 countries, which is awesome. He's instilled a love of traveling in me as well. but I was ecstatic when he finally moved back in 2017, 'cause I felt like I just got my brother back.

Dr. Dean 8:35

Mm hmm.

Kate Chertik 8:37

Yeah, but I was proud of him. When I made the comment earlier if you knew me you knew larry It's because I was bragging about what he was doing and how proud I was of him

Dr. Dean 8:46

Yeah, So how long ago did Larry die?

Kate Chertik 8:50

This month will be 15 months. He passed away February 20th of last year. President's Day.

Dr. Dean 8:57

Of 2023.

Kate Chertik 8:59

Yes. 2023.

Losing Larry: A Scooter & A Stupid Pothole

Dr. Dean 9:02

What are you comfortable sharing about losing Larry?

Kate Chertik 9:06

About his accident?

Dr. Dean 9:08

yea

Kate Chertik 9:09

It's one of those things that is, it's so silly. And at this point it's become publicized. So it's not like people don't know it's been on the news. He was riding one of those electric scooters downtown. He lived in the North shore and he was coming back over from where the stadiums are, where those restaurants are in the North shore. And.

Dr. Dean 9:27

hmm. Mm

Kate Chertik 9:28

From what we've learned, he was going through an underpass and a car was coming up behind him. So he tried to veer the scooter over closer to the sidewalk and he hit a pothole. When he hit the pothole, the handlebars hit him right in the spleen and he flew over the handlebars and smacked his head on the ground. And the police said, according to the video, he sat on the sidewalk trying to collect himself, probably as a guy trying to shake it off. And he walked home. and they found him collapsed in his apartment hallway's floor,

Dr. Dean 10:01

Mm hmm.

Kate Chertik 10:01

we don't know how long he was there, but what happened was the handlebars ruptured his spleen, so he started bleeding internally, and the internal bleeding caused cardiac arrest. I think it was 22 minutes for the paramedics to get there between when security called, and when they finally got there, he was in cardiac arrest. They were able to bring him back and then on the way to Allegheny general, he had two more cardiac arrests, which is a very short span. He was only two or three blocks away from the hospital and they performed surgery. They stopped the bleeding of the spleen. He had two more cardiac arrests while in surgery. Once they got him closed up, he was still bleeding somewhere is what we were told. So they opened him back up a second time and they weren't able to find where that bleeding was coming from. So I remember waking up at 2 30 in the morning to go to the bathroom and I had 25 missed calls from my dad and I was really panicked. I thought it was something wrong with my dad. It never occurred to me that it was Larry. And, he was like, Katie. You need to get to Allegheny general and I said what's going on and he said it's Larry and I said That's vague. What's going on? And he said he's dying And so I rushed I guess he couldn't get a hold of my mom either So the hospital was sending police to her house to wake her up.

Dr. Dean 11:25

Mm hmm.

Kate Chertik 11:26

I got dressed I flew to my mom's house her and my stepdad, we all drove down to Allegheny General. And by the time we got there, the doctor sat with us in the waiting room and he was like, There's nothing we can do. Basically we've just been keeping him alive because we knew you guys were on the way. And we wanted to make sure that you could say goodbye. So we went in, obviously didn't look great. bleeding internally, two surgeries, five cardiac arrests. And my mom was very, she's always very stoic, very rash and they gave us five minutes and we were like, all right, you can stop the medication, basically keeping him alive. It's just all surreal.

Dr. Dean 12:06

Yeah.

Kate Chertik 12:09

Yeah. It's one of those things like my, even my dad was like, are you sure you want to see him? And I'm thinking like, absolutely. what do you mean? And I remember grabbing his hand and he flinched. You'd think I've watched enough medical shows to know that's just the body. Yeah. Absolutely. The body's natural reaction. And, yeah, there was nothing more they could do. And we believe genuinely that he was probably gone before he even got to the hospital. Being in cardiac arrest like that, they're lucky they were even able to bring him back. 'Cause like I said, we have no idea how long he was collapsed in the hallway. It was 22 minutes before the ambulance even got there.

Dr. Dean 12:45

he'd already left the scene of where he was injured too, right? So

Kate Chertik 12:50

yes, yeah. They found him

Dr. Dean 12:51

that time.

Kate Chertik 12:53

Yeah, and honestly, I'm fortunate that he collapsed where he did because I couldn't imagine if he had made it into his apartment complex and collapsed, how long would it have been before someone found him?

Dr. Dean 13:06

Yeah, how did they make the connection that he was on the scooter?

Kate Chertik 13:10

So when the police got there about the same time as the ambulance, the spin scooter app was still open on his phone. He hadn't even ended the rides yet. he wasn't, obviously wasn't thinking clearly to end the ride. Spin actually charged him for the ride, when it finally was stopped. But that's how they made the connection was that it was open on his app and they were able to see the last ride he had requested, paid for, whatever.

Dr. Dean 13:34

so you didn't have a lot of time to process that It was rather sudden. Do you feel like you were able to say goodbye in those last few minutes that you had?

Kate Chertik 13:47

this is one of those questions. I don't even remember saying goodbye. I just remember telling him I love him. And asking him to wake up. and even after they stopped the medication, your heart's still going for a little bit. You're still breathing. So it was

Dr. Dean 14:04

mmm hmm.

Kate Chertik 14:06

is he really dead? Can he wake up? You know what I mean? That type of thing. just that little bit of hope. But no, I don't remember saying bye. Yeah. I think it was, again, it was just so fast. There was only probably 45 minutes between getting the phone call. And getting to the hospital and my dad was just like, he's dying. So I do remember driving to the hospital, just repetitively saying please wake up, please wake up. Yeah, it was a tough situation. It happened what in a matter of an hour and a half, Between that accident and when we think he was gone, it was only an hour and a half. It was just so fast, all of it

Dr. Dean 14:57

hmm. For our listeners, a lot of them will know that I'm also from Pittsburgh, Living here, I'm struck by when you're saying that. I'll be fully honest, when you said the pothole, it's such a Pittsburgh thing to have this gut reaction about potholes, right? And I felt myself being like, oh, There's this joke that always about potholes here, and I'm

Kate Chertik 15:19

That it's a survival skill to learn where the potholes are in Pittsburgh.

Dr. Dean 15:25

yes, and that really feels different now that you've described that.

Kate Chertik 15:31

Well, and having seen those jokes, We've been hearing those jokes for years and then to actually have my brother pass away because of a stupid pothole,

Dr. Dean 15:42

Mm hmm. Which I think you actually said when you contacted me. He died because of a stupid pothole. Yeah.

Kate Chertik 15:48

Yes. So yeah, it just feels very trivial. It's just one of those things like, what? What? nobody that got on those scooters, I didn't just because I'm a bit like, no, I'm too much of a grandma

Dr. Dean 16:02

ahmm.

Kate Chertik 16:03

But nobody ever thinks that they're going to hit a pothole and die because of it. Yes. It was very frustrating.

Dr. Dean 16:13

Yeah. What was it like for you also to navigate, you knew you were going to the hospital and that he was dying. It sounds like you were hopeful that he would wake up. So in those early few days of mourning, what was that like?

Kate Chertik 16:26

I feel like I blacked out, to be honest with you. It was, again, my mom is very stoic and rash and so she just handled everything. She jumped into everything as far as cleaning out his apartment, reaching out his to his job, handling everything while my dad and I like, barely got off the couch. It was devastating. I mean, was unreal. It feels like I was seeing myself from the outside, like it doesn't even feel like I was in my body. I couldn't process it. And even to this day, it's very similar. obviously we all deal with death, right? Our grandparents pass away, parents pass away. Grief is everywhere in our life, but this loss for me, rearranged the world.

Dr. Dean 17:16

mmhmm well how couldn't it your whole world had him

Normalizing Anger in Loss

Dr. Dean 17:20

in it.

Kate Chertik 17:20

yes. But even like I said, even with grandparents before that, and you you're expecting that they're older, but yeah, this was substantial.

Dr. Dean 17:28

Mm-Hmm.

Kate Chertik 17:29

I felt like a zombie, just angry. I think the anger was the biggest emotion that I felt those first few days, like scary anger. And for the first few months, I, there was points where I was even considering committing myself. I genuinely thought that there was no way I was going to get through it.

Dr. Dean 17:53

I wonder if you can verbalize what you were angry about. Mm-Hmm.

Kate Chertik 18:55

Everything, angry at God, angry at the universe, angry at the potholes, angry at the scooter company. Anger at my brother and I know that sucks to say because they're not they're gone. They're not here, but I was so angry at him Especially because it wasn't his first accident on one of those scooters He had called me before he fell in the North Shore. Maybe he like I don't know if he Hit a curb or hit a pothole previously. But he called me with a black eye the one night. And so I was just mad. He even got back on it. I was upset with him. I was upset that it was my I think, and I think we all go through this. We're like, why my family? Why my brother? Why my sister? and I still battle that anger. That anger, I don't know if it's ever gonna go away.

Dr. Dean 19:48

right? Let's normalize this anger for a second because I think people are afraid to say Sometimes I'm angry at the person that died, but it's a normal response and I'm not promoting the five stages of grief because I've talked about it before that's not actually a great grief theory, but I do think anger as an emotion does make sense in grief and something that we should talk about. I get angry at my own brother too because he died from a heart attack in his sleep, but he was putting off going to a doctor until certain events happened. and yeah, I still get angry at him. Like, why didn't you just go?

Kate Chertik 20:28

Well, and you make a good point because I was very angry that Larry sat on the sidewalk and didn't call 911. I don't know if it's true or not. I was told that this car saw Larry fall the car that he had tried to avoid. They saw the whole accident and they asked him like, are you okay? Do you need us to call nine one one? And how I made the comment about guys will be guys that he just sat there and shook it off. And I wonder had he called nine one one right then and there, instead of trying to walk home, would he still be here? yeah, I do. And you're right, there is shame in saying that. Nobody wants to say, I'm mad at my brother for dying, but I am.

Dr. Dean 21:09

hmm.

Kate Chertik 21:10

And I feel it all the time, even with stuff now. Like, My parents will start talking to me, about what I'm supposed to do when they pass. And I'm like, damn you, Larry. Like, if you were here, I shouldn't have to be going through this by myself.

Dr. Dean 21:27

Yeah. Yes.

Kate Chertik 21:30

think it's, I think it should be normalized. It's just It's not even directly at him. I feel like it's just the situation.

Dr. Dean 21:38

Yeah, for sure. I think, as siblings too, we are supposed to be there together to navigate losing our parents. That's the natural order of things. life and death, right? And so I think for sure that feels lonely. I just talked to Randye about this a couple episodes ago in which she's 45 years out and she talked about how hard that was to do.

Kate Chertik 22:04

I think I might have actually seen her quote on your Instagram page. It said, I'm sitting here thinking about it, like I have to do this two more times by myself. And it's, how do you not get angry at them for it? it's not their fault. Larry didn't choose this, but yeah, it goes with the emotions.

Dr. Dean 22:27

Yeah. So beyond the anger, I'm guessing you had other experiences and it sounds like you're navigating too, all of the family dynamics. with the different families without him.

Kate Chertik 22:42

Trying to. I genuinely feel like I'm winging it at this point. I don't know if it's, I, I'm a year, I'm a, I know I hit the one year mark, but I've always been told that one to two year mark is brutal, way worse than the first year. And I'm in the middle of that. I get that. I understand now.

Dr. Dean 23:00

I think it's interesting that timeline is different for everyone. And I'm a little over four years out, right? So I'm still early in grief and people like to tell us that it gets easier over time. And I don't think that's true. I think in some ways, because we get farther from the person, that it gets harder. in some ways you just acclimate to it, which that's not easier, that's just different.

Kate Chertik 23:24

yeah. And I feel like that's just, we don't have any other choice. So it's, I'm going into a begrudgingly, like I'm not happy about having to accept this reality. I'd give any, even today I'd give anything to change it.

Dr. Dean 23:40

You and I talked just before we started recording, about the news coverage. I wonder what you want to, or you don't have to, what you want to say about that.

Kate Chertik 23:51

That's been tough. It became publicized a lot more than I thought it would. It was a few months and I'll tell you a little bit about how that even came about. It was two months after Larry had passed away. I was at dinner with my dad and I saw on the news that the pilot program for the scooters was almost up and the city council was in talks of extending it or renewing it. And I, of course, still in my anger phase. Just decided to reach out to city council in general and say, hi, my name is Katelyn. This is what happened. this is why I believe you shouldn't bring the scooters back. And from there, a city council woman had reached out to me and then it became Katelyn, do you mind speaking to this journalist? So then this journalist reached out to me and then once the news got a hold of the journalist's article. The news reached out to me and said, can we interview you? And, after that, a lawyer did. A lawyer reached out and said, Hey, I just want you to know I'm currently representing people that have also been in scooter related accidents. Can we get together and talk about a possible lawsuit? And at this point it wasn't supposed to go beyond just me giving my opinion and saying, please don't renew these scooters. This is

Scooter Safety & Advocacy

Kate Chertik 25:05

why. and I got really deeply involved in this and just found out some things about the scooter company and how they hadn't been reporting accidents correctly and accurately. They hadn't, the news hadn't even heard about Larry's death and it says. on Larry's death certificate splenic rupture caused by a motorized scooter. So there really was no denying it. The ME put it right on his report that's how the splenic rupture happened was from the scooter fall.

Dr. Dean 25:35

Mm.

Kate Chertik 25:36

And so that became hard, especially with it being publicized. I accidentally made the mistake of reading all the stupid comments on social media And things like oh, he was drunk and he deserved it and he's just one person What does it matter if he died? It's still a mode of transportation all kinds of crazy things and So finally they the scooters ended up going away But I think they are now bringing them back and my family is in the middle of a lawsuit with Spin, Segway, and the city of Pittsburgh, and they're trying to shut us up. Larry's case was the worst case there's. Hundreds of them. Larry's case was the only fatality. So our lawyer, I should say, was trying to use him to spearhead the whole lawsuit. And the company has come back and said, you can't go after the city. You can't go after Segway. You can't go after Spin. Because they got bought out by a parent company who filed bankruptcy. Which is convenient. And, so it's been frustrating. It really has because even just yesterday they asked us, because they're talking settlement. They just want us out of the way. Basically. They just want us out of the way so that they can continue with their plan of paying out the other claimants. And, so even just yesterday we had to sit down and talk about putting a dollar figure on Larry's life. and, my parents are obviously very upset about that. So I tried to tell him, I said, it's not necessarily. Okay. Putting a dollar figure on Larry's life will never be able to do that. That's not possible, but it's putting a dollar figure on holding these companies accountable. I just think that the city itself with the infrastructure failed us by letting us even have them on the roads and these companies. if you're telling me that I can be wearing an Apple watch and I fall and it can detect a fall and prompt me to call 911. Why are these scooters not equipped with this kind of technology? Why isn't there better shock absorbers? So it was just a lot of petitions, a lot of reaching out to city council. Trying to get them out of here, trying to keep them off the roads and trying to keep these companies. accountable.

Dr. Dean 27:54

Yeah.

Kate Chertik 27:55

and I don't know, I don't know if you watched my news article, I said, we're a drinking city and we're a pothole city. It's

Dr. Dean 28:02

I actually, yeah, I didn't see it, but I did read the article. I,

Kate Chertik 28:06

that's pretty accurate. Living in Pittsburgh, we're a drinking city and everywhere you go, there's potholes all over the road.

Dr. Dean 28:12

Sports, drinks, potholes. Yeah. combination. You were able to say that this is what the city is about. You want change, it sounds like, so nobody else gets injured or killed.

Kate Chertik 28:26

Correct. Larry's accident involving a pothole wasn't the only one. Another girl that was included in the lawsuit was in town for I believe a Kenny Chesney concert And she was on her way to the bar and she hit a pothole and she fell on the scooter and lacerated her liver

Dr. Dean 28:44

Oh, wow.

Kate Chertik 28:45

So when she I guess she was from out of town. She was from Indiana and when she got back to Indiana She had to have emergency surgery to repair her lacerated liver. So Yeah, I don't mind the scooters being around. I just think the city if they're gonna have them needs to be You wiser about which roads they're being used on and fix the potholes.

Dr. Dean 29:07

Like even those bike lanes, I would think they'd have to pay attention to that too. Yeah.

Kate Chertik 29:13

Our lawyer, before he had even, before Larry's accident, had sent a letter in November to the city council and said, I have a client. She hit a pothole and lacerated her liver. These are where are the, all the potholes are in the North shore. You need to fix them. And that was in November. The city never responded and Larry's accident was in February. And so that's another thing. It's if they had just taken accountability and fixed them, would he still be here? We'll never know.

Dr. Dean 29:47

So this what if game, as I've called it in the past, I don't have a better name for that. I wonder how much that keeps you from processing your grief if at all.

Kate Chertik 30:01

A lot. I think I'll be honest with you. I think a lot and I think it's stopped me from even trying to move forward. I've been struggling a lot lately with just grieving my old life, the old me. What life used to look like and I know it and it stinks because you're self aware But you just don't know where to go.

Dr. Dean 30:27

Yeah. Do you want to say more about what you mean by that?

Kate Chertik 30:32

Yeah so especially the grieving who I used to be I mean I just used to be carefree and fun and very similar to Larry the life of the party like and now I Isolate now. I just don't even want to deal with people. I don't want to deal with anything And I know that's a bit of depression, but a lot of it is the grief You And I know it's stopping me from moving forward. I just have a lot of anticipatory grief about everything. Like I've even said to friends, like I'm afraid to even have friendships or relationships because I'm afraid to get close to somebody and lose them again.

Dr. Dean 31:12

Right.

Kate Chertik 31:13

it's really kept me. And I've even been afraid to get a new job, right? Like I'm afraid to change from the last version of me that Larry knew, if that makes sense.

Dr. Dean 31:23

Mm hmm. No, absolutely. I was just thinking about that.

Kate Chertik 31:26

Yeah, you just want to hang on to every aspect of life that you had before they passed away.

Dr. Dean 31:34

It's almost like we want to preserve who they knew because that part of us was so important to them, or we hope that it was. And unfortunately, there's no way to be that person again.

Kate Chertik 31:48

Correct, and the acceptance has been hard Like I will literally sit there and look in the mirror and I'm like you have to accept this you have to accept it You're no longer that Kate. That's no longer your life and It's time to create something new, but it's hard when you know they're not going to be there.

Dr. Dean 32:06

So trying to navigate now how you move forward with your grief and with the love for Larry. I wonder what that looks like for you?

Kate Chertik 32:17

Baby steps. I like, I've started this grief group. and a little bit of that was selfish. A little bit of that was me wanting to be around people that can relate. because I've especially found it hard to relate to anybody these days and trying to find a new job. Trying to do things to honor Larry, like even

Change in Identity: The Last Version of Kate That Larry Knew

Kate Chertik 32:39

this is going to sound so stupid national sibling day, which was April 10th.

Dr. Dean 32:44

Yes.

Kate Chertik 32:45

I was like, what can I do to honor Larry? So I went and joined the gym because that's something that he would do, but

Dr. Dean 32:52

I don't think that sounds stupid.

Kate Chertik 32:54

I've

Dr. Dean 32:55

sounds like that is part of what we call the continuing bond of having that relationship with him and he'd want you to join the gym or that was something that reminded you or connected you with him. So I absolutely don't think that's stupid.

Kate Chertik 33:07

Oh, I haven't even gone. It's been a month.

Dr. Dean 33:10

it's only been a month

Kate Chertik 33:12

and it just made me feel better that day to do something that.

Dr. Dean 33:15

Mm

Kate Chertik 33:16

he would have been proud of me for doing. That's how I, yeah, like I can't, it's not going to be these big leaps and bounds trying to get back to normalcy or trying to get back to life. just little things. I'll be honest with you. I don't know. I have no idea how I'm supposed to move forward.

Dr. Dean 33:40

Yeah, it's hard because I think also this idea of acceptance. be clear, what you mean by that, I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, acceptance is not the same as approval. I like to remind people of that a lot in my professional work. but it doesn't mean that it's an easy process to accept the facts of our lives that your sibling isn't here, right? It's still a difficult thing to move forward with.

Kate Chertik 34:08

It's like a roller coaster. I could wake up in the morning feeling great, like I'm ready to kick today's ass, and then an hour later I can be sobbing.

Dr. Dean 34:18

Yeah. Mm-Hmm.

Kate Chertik 34:20

In the morning I can say, okay, Kate, like this is life now. What are you going to do to move forward? But I can see something that reminds me of Larry or hear a song or whatever it is, and I'm right back to where I was 15 months ago. It's hard. Those moments are I, and again, even that it's like acceptance of the fact that I can't even control those moments. I have to just. Be in them and get through them type of Yeah, I feel like it's gonna be a lifelong process That's what stinks about the grief thing is that there is no nobody can definitively say when you're gonna feel better Nobody can definitively say when the anger is gonna stop or when the acceptance is gonna be at a hundred percent

Dr. Dean 35:10

That is true. because grief last, right? As long as they were supposed to be here in your life. and longer, for the rest of your life. What is it like now to be around your parents or your friends? You said that you're afraid to get hurt and lose new people, but I wonder what it's like for you to be around people that are already in your life.

Kate Chertik 35:31

To be honest with you. I feel like grief has really shown me You A lot about people. I feel like I had a lot of friendships fade away and In the moment, I just didn't care about restoring those friendships. Grief has to be a bit selfish. I mean I had to focus on getting myself through the day for my daughter's sake let alone trying to continue friendships or check in on friendships but I felt like a lot of people were just avoiding me too and I don't blame them if I could have avoided me during that period I absolutely would have

Dr. Dean 36:07

That's a valid assessment of self. Yeah, Because we get upset that people avoid us in grief, and possibly we would if we could.

Kate Chertik 36:17

Yeah. I totally understand. It hurts. It stings. but I wouldn't even, I've maintained a couple of those close friendships. It is so hard because life has moved on for everybody else. And I just feel very stuck. even I could be in the middle of a party or a concert and I will be in my head thinking about him. So it is, it's difficult. People will be afraid to bring him up. People will be afraid to talk about him. They're like, Oh, I don't want you to think about him. There's not a moment of our day where we're not thinking about the person that we lost, especially someone that we were that close with. I would still say even at 15

Living in Grief after Losing Larry

Kate Chertik 36:56

months out, 75 percent of my day is still thinking about Larry. So it's been hard to maintain friendships.

Dr. Dean 37:04

One, I wonder too, because earlier you mentioned how uncomfortable people become and how quiet you've become around that. And I think sometimes people don't know how to handle the presence of our sibling in our conversations, right? And so they shy away from it, which reinforces this idea that you're still thinking about him and it still hurts, but it doesn't feel okay to talk about him or whomever you've lost.

Kate Chertik 37:31

well, and that just makes it more isolating for us. I felt like I've done the right thing as far as reaching out, getting out of the house, not sitting in my bedroom sulking all day. But then once I'm out, I'm like, Oh, this is still pretty terrible. yeah. And I just, I've had a very low tolerance for things, or I'll even it's in its little things. I can hear my friend talking about. How the annoying they think their sister or their brother is and things like that still trigger me I'm like you really need to just watch and think and get better about those kinds of things, but they don't know what we're going through they don't understand what I'm even saying to them. It's just so they're annoying sibling They can't even fathom the pain or what it's like to lose them.

Dr. Dean 38:19

It's true, right? We can envy other people's sibling relationships. I wonder how you've handled that. Do you say something to the friends?

Kate Chertik 38:27

I try not to it's really not my place. because then it just makes it sound like I'm having a pity party, which I'm not. I'm just trying to say Hey, you need to enjoy that bond while it's still there. Hey, you need to appreciate that sibling a little bit more than you currently are. I guess they're annoying, but really think about how substantial that sibling relationship is.

Dr. Dean 38:47

Mm hmm. I've done the same thing, I think, from time to time with people. It's okay, I'll just not say anything, or sometimes I will be like, Listen, I wish I could argue with my brother right now. Yeah.

Kate Chertik 38:59

Yes. Yeah, exactly. I wish I could. Somebody was just complaining to me that they had to go see their brother on Sunday and it was inconvenient. I was like, you have no idea how much you're going to miss that one day.

Dr. Dean 39:11

exactly. So I know you mentioned the group earlier. Do you want to say more about what you're doing there? Yeah. Yeah.

Kate Chertik 39:19

Yeah, it's been a little bit tough. my own personal therapist has told me that these groups are difficult to build and difficult to keep going because people struggle with talking about their feelings, which I understand. So it just came to fruition. Just as I said, I myself needed the resource. It was not available when I first, when the accident first happened. If I did find a group, it was, you have to be a year out from your sibling loss before we'll even let you join. And the online groups weren't doing it for me. They just seemed very chaotic. And unfortunately, I know a unreal amount of people that have lost their siblings. So my friend Beth and I had been talking about getting it started. So it was just a matter of finding the place. And trying to build it up. It's nothing huge, but it's helping. I know it's helping more than just me. I've had other siblings that have said to me, they're like, I really appreciate your group. and it's not that we try to keep it light and casual. We just let the conversation flow as it does. But we've talked about all sorts of things and it's just nice to be around people that understand. But it also has opened my eyes to the fact that even other siblings might not understand the depths of your grief or every situation. So different. There was, a threesome

Beginning a Sibling Loss Support Group

Kate Chertik 40:44

that came in three sisters that had lost their sister at 62 to cancer. And they had known for two years that they were going to lose her. So it's just very situational. but it seems to be like everybody's getting something beneficial out of it, which I'm happy about. Yeah. It felt like a way to honor him and still take care of my mental health at the same time. Yeah, so Beth is on the episode that airing the week before this one. Okay.

Dr. Dean 41:12

Yeah, I'm actually curious to learn more about this group and see how we can work together with that if that's of any use, to you, but also perhaps participate in myself. So thank you for doing that because there are certainly few resources across the world and definitely here. so thank you.

Kate Chertik 41:30

Absolutely. I know so many people that I have invited and that have not gone and I hope they show up, but I've just noticed too with a lot of people that, that If they're fortunate enough, they don't need the resource, but I've noticed people that are further out from their grief, just don't seem to talk about it as much, I don't know if they're over it, I don't know what it is, but it's everybody in the group is, it's like a newer lost me, Beth. I have a friend who she hasn't even been at a year yet. And then I think I have somebody else that's two years out. And so it's all more recent. That's a little bit tough.

Dr. Dean 42:08

What I think the challenge there is because society has said that the norm for us to grieve is a year, which is ridiculous. and so I think part of what you're doing and part of what I'm doing with The Broken Pack™ and other, grief people are talking about is let's normalize grief. It's a loss that lasts with you for a lifetime. And I've talked about this before, and listeners have probably heard this multiple times, but my own father is still very much grieving his brother that died six decades ago. so for all of our guests, I've talked about that. And given the opportunity to talk and say, tell me about your sibling, tell me about whoever died, mother, brother, cat, whomever you're grieving, people are willing to talk about that and how it's impacted them. So I don't know that it's necessarily people aren't going to come to the group. They just don't feel they have the permission to do that. And so I think we can work to change that.

Kate Chertik 43:07

Yeah, I just, I think it's a huge resource. Like you said, there's nothing out there. I think I only stumbled upon the, Compassionate Friends Facebook page. That's actually how I met Beth, by accident, but especially in that first year, I think it makes a world of difference. it's so isolating. And you think it's one of those, and a perfect example of that is I just felt like I, the anger thing, going back to being angry at our siblings, like you don't even feel like you can express that to anybody. And I, people feel ashamed for even feeling that. And I just want people to know that is okay I mean you have to if you're not talking about it, you're carrying it and it gets heavy And so that's why i'm not pushing anybody to go. I just wanted everybody to know that it's a resource that is there

Dr. Dean 43:57

Is there a link that we can share? It's for our listeners. This is a local group for the Pittsburgh area. but is there a link I can share for anyone that would be able to attend?

Kate Chertik 44:09

don't have a link what i've been doing is making a

Dr. Dean 44:12

Okay.

Kate Chertik 44:13

Which I can send to you

Dr. Dean 44:14

I can share that.

Kate Chertik 44:15

it and it just yeah, it gives some basic information

Dr. Dean 44:18

Are there other things that you wish you knew or thought could have been helpful in those early days, early months?

Kate Chertik 44:26

My biggest thing and this is going to sound contradictory because it's it didn't necessarily work for me Reaching out is huge. I mean being around people finding people that Are willing to let you listen and let you talk about the memories. And I don't care if you want to talk about them for five hours or

Dr. Dean 44:52

Mm

Kate Chertik 44:52

but just finding those people that are willing to listen is so important. Those first few days, it was so easy for me first few months, honestly, it was so easy for me to isolate and to just let the depression take over, let the grief take over. let the anxiety take over. and retrospectively, I really wish I hadn't done that. Maybe I would be further along in my healing journey today If I hadn't isolated the way that I did in the

Dr. Dean 45:21

beginning. Mm

Kate Chertik 45:22

Yes. and really just pushed people away. and not intentionally, it was, again, it was just like an out of body experience, but that would be my biggest suggestion is finding people, even if they can't relate to it. on the specific loss, just finding people that understand that grief needs to be talked about and that there, we need to hold space for grief rather than just burying it. Those people are so important. And I know we

Kate's Advice for Grieving Siblings in Early Days of Mourning

Kate Chertik 45:51

don't think that it'll make us feel better. We get in our heads and we're like, nothing's going to make me feel better. The only thing that's going to make me feel better is my sibling being alive again. I don't think we realize how interacting with those people, even if it's 10 minutes, just getting what you need to off your chest is imperative. it's huge.

Dr. Dean 46:09

I agree with that. Now some people don't like to talk, and so you, like myself, are a, you griever that likes to talk. And as for some people, it's just doing things. There's different styles of grief and grieving.

Kate Chertik 46:24

My mom threw herself into work.

Dr. Dean 46:27

Yeah,

Kate Chertik 46:27

Yeah.

Dr. Dean 46:28

which many people do.

Kate Chertik 46:31

busy.

Dr. Dean 46:32

yeah, started an organization and started grief group. Those things are also doing right. yeah. So are there other things that you wanted to share before I ask you about the memory?

Kate Chertik 46:46

No. No. I, I second guess my judgment these days just because, again, I can go from being normal and feeling like the old Kate to being back in the hospital within a matter of hours. So it's tough.

Dr. Dean 47:03

Do you think that the therapy that you are attending has been helpful for grief?

Kate Chertik 47:09

No, and I don't say that today. My therapist was not a grief specific therapist. and I feel like she, I probably should have talked more than I did. I feel like she let me hook a little bit, if that makes sense. Yeah. which is easy to do. once I start crying, like nobody wants to deal with that. I really have to. Was it helpful? No, because it, we can only hear so many times, it's gonna get better, it's gonna get easier, you have to feel it. we know these things, instinctively. We already know that we don't have any other choice to get through it. I think it would be better to find a therapist that has experience in the loss and experience with the grief itself. Someone like you or even maybe not a sibling specific loss but somebody that knows loss and grief in their soul I think would have been a lot better. I think my therapist was just, and I love her, don't get me wrong, I'm not gonna stop seeing her, She was just, it was just very textbook. Just very textbook.

Dr. Dean 48:15

Yeah, to be fair, and I'm, this is why I harp on things like this in the newsletter is there is a specific level of training. to be able to work with grief and loss

Kate's Thoughts on Therapy

Dr. Dean 48:28

that most therapists and psychologists and counselors do not have training in. For many of our programs, the death and dying class, there's maybe one, or there's a grief counseling class, but for the most part, and this is a generalization, but most programs, that's an optional training. I like an elective. so that's why I harp on making sure you're asking the right questions when you're looking for a grief therapist or grief counselor. And those are two different things too, but, so that you're getting what you need and it's okay to fire a therapist. I, we don't usually take that personally. if we do our problem, not yours. so making sure you find that person. And the reason I ask you about that is I'm working to try to create some training around grief specific to sibling loss for therapists. There are a lot of training programs out there to help people become a better grief informed or grief, humble, therapist.. So I'm not trying to dish on anyone specifically, I just in general wanted to ask about that.

Kate Chertik 49:32

yeah, and I don't think every therapist is grief specific. Like you said, it's specific classes, it's special classes, the same way that it would be like a drug and alcohol counselor. and so my therapist was not specific for grief, but at the time I wasn't even capable of looking for one. I was just like, I need you,

Dr. Dean 49:52

Mm

Kate Chertik 49:52

please help me. So I threw a lot

Dr. Dean 49:54

yeah. So would you like to share some of your favorite memories about Larry?

Kate Chertik 50:00

Yeah, one of them was definitely the Penn State one. He was just such a goofball. I was just thinking about one last night because my dad and I are going to the Italian festival in Philadelphia next weekend. And right before, the October before he passed away, we had gone out of town with my daughter up to Reystown. And we went to the Bedford Fall Festival, I want to say. My dad and my daughter went off to go to a food truck and we lost them. And so me and Larry are walking around, it's packed. There's like thousands of people and we're like, okay, we know they're getting food, but what are they getting? And at one point Larry and I just looked at each other and we were like hot sausage at the exact same time. And we walk right over to the hot sausage booth. And that's where my dad was like, that's it. It was just, you had to be there

Dr. Dean 50:49

You both knew him

Kate Chertik 50:50

like know my dad. Yeah, we both knew him well. We knew each other well to even know what to think about where to find him in this group of thousands of people. It was hilarious. We were just cracking up and we were like, we've looked at all these food stands. Of course, you're at the hot sausage stand. I remember the one time he was always, I have a pit bull and he actually have a pit bull because Larry loved pit bulls. And, he used to help me out with her a lot and she had gone through a heat and Larry didn't even know what a heat was. And, so, this is gonna sound so weird, her nipples hardened, her nipples protruded.

Favorite Memories of Larry

Kate Chertik 51:25

So I remember I was at work one day and Larry called me and he's Kate, he's we need to get Maze to AVETS right now. And I was like, what is wrong? I was like, I've been gone for two hours. And he was like, she's got these pimples all over her stomach. He was like, they're super red. I don't even know what they are. And I said, pimples. I said, send me a picture, Larry. I'm not going to Avets for pimples. And he sends me a picture of her nipples. And I was like, Larry, they're nipples. And he was like, what do you mean they're nipples? Dogs don't have nipples. I said, how do you think they feed puppies, Larry? He genuinely was very confused about what was going on. He called me in a panic at work and was ready to go drop like thousands of dollars at Avets. Just for them to say, Hey, she's in heat. And those are her nipples in case she gets pregnant and has a litter. Oh my gosh. I love him. He's so goofy. So smart, but blonde at the same time, like ditzy at the same time.

Dr. Dean 52:23

That's hilarious.

Kate Chertik 52:25

Yeah, it was ridiculous. I felt he's not here now so I can embarrass him. So I had to like, let the world know that story existed and that he thought those were pimple, or that he thought those were, yeah, a problem. He had no idea what they were. He's like, why is there so many? I was like, why is there so many?

Dr. Dean 52:39

Well, you also saved him from embarrassment of taking the dog to the vet. So I'm glad that you also looked out for him. You could have been like, I don't know, take

Kate Chertik 52:47

have just let him. Oh, that's awesome.

Dr. Dean 52:55

All right. is there anything else you want to say about scooters or scooter safety in general?

Kate Chertik 53:01

Just don't ride them. That's my opinion.

Dr. Dean 53:04

That works.

Kate Chertik 53:05

If they come back and you might see me on the news throwing them into our rivers, I have a whole team of Larry's friends ready to go. We are just gonna literally get rid of all of them.

Dr. Dean 53:15

I will sign up for that. All right. thanks for talking today.

Kate Chertik 53:21

Absolutely. Thank you for having me on.

Dr. Dean 53:23

Thank you so much for listening. Our theme song was written by Joe Mylward and Brian Dean and was performed by Fuji Sounds (feat. MYLWD.). If you would like more information on The Broken Pack™, go to our website, thebrokenpack. com. Be sure to sign up for our newsletter, Wild Grief™, and to learn about opportunities and receive exclusive information and content, as well as grieving tips for subscribers. Information on that, our social media and on our guest can be found in the show notes wherever you get your podcasts. Please like, follow, rate, subscribe, and share. Thanks again.