Music Playing: 0:02

If tomorrow starts without me. There's something you should know. While I hold you close, never let you go.

Dr. Angela Dean: 0:11

Hello, and welcome to The Broken Pack™, a podcast focused on giving sibling loss survivors a platform to share their stories and to be heard. Something that many sibling loss survivors state that they never have had. Sibling loss is misunderstood. The broken Pack exists to change that and to support survivors. I'm your host, Dr. Angela. Dean in this episode I spoke with Dr. Christina Zanella. She's noted for creating the term surviving sibling in her dissertation I spoke to her about losing her brother Damien, what it's like to be a loss and her grief, what she's learned and what advice she has to siblings, but most As a surviving, grieving sibling. ' Music Playing: cause you never know. You just never know. Content warning, this episode contains talk of substance use, So how would you like to introduce yourself to our listeners?

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 1:24

Well, I can start out talking about how I know you.

Dr. Angela Dean: 1:29

Sure. Whatever you wanna say.

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 1:31

So I was honored enough to meet Angela when Laws and Transitions annual Retreat on Bainbridge Island, which that would Just getting sure to where we needed to go. And she approached me and told me who she was and what she was doing, and then adult surviving siblings, I was like, you must make this happen because this is the whole reason why I got into the field of Tology, which is death, loss and grief. Right. I'm a psychologist and I am licensed in Delaware and in California. I've lived in both places. I. The founder and owner of the Center for Grief and Trauma Therapy in Pike an organization that specializes in grief and trauma group practice with their own subspecialties, which has been fantastic, and we continue to expand I'm an adjunct professor, so I teach at a couple universities and I develop courses and certificate programs in grief and loss. I'm a professional speaker, as you know, and I do that internationally and

Music Playing: 2:50

mm-hmm.

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 2:51

Which is cool to be able to say Has just recently emerged over the last couple of years. I'm gonna wear that with pride. You should. You absolutely should. And it's taken me 20 years to get to that point, and I'm an adult surviving sibling and I have a significant amount of loss in my life and I'm here to talk about that. I'm here to share my story and my narrative and answer questions. And not only come, I think from a professional standpoint, like I wanna see how this is organic. 'cause I think. A lot of times when I've had people on my own podcast, which is Phoenix Rising with Dr. Z, it's easy if I have a clinician to get into the clinical stuff. Mm-hmm. But that doesn't necessarily mean it's going to land all the time. Mm-hmm. With people who are experiencing or have experienced similar kinds of I don't need to go into didactic training, blah, blah, blah. Mm-hmm. I can weave it in, but I'm here to tell my story and I'm not So just be aware

Dr. Angela Dean: 3:56

that's

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 3:56

these things.

Dr. Angela Dean: 3:57

Totally fine. I'm so glad unprepared that you're on here, and I've mentioned on this the classes that I teach that after my brother died as psychologists with We look for the research to help us understand what's going on, and. There were very few helpful articles out there except for one written

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 4:23

I'm honored by that.

Dr. Angela Dean: 4:24

Yeah. And then I met you and I was like, oh, I feel like I've known you for years.

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 4:28

Right. Just like an immediate Ah, there you are.

Dr. Angela Dean: 4:32

Yeah.

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 4:33

Yeah.

Dr. Angela Dean: 4:34

So welcome.

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 4:35

Thank you.

Dr. Angela Dean: 4:36

How would you introduce Damien to us?

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 4:39

I pause 'cause I don't know if I can do Is four years younger than me. We're very, very poor, very low socioeconomic status for So Damien and I often turn to one another ways of trying to Mm-hmm. Finding ways to connect when you don't have the resources for your parents to take you on play dates and stuff like that, that didn't happen, you know? Mm-hmm. Damien was a character. He was extremely funny. He was like so soft inside, so empathetic, but wanted to be this like, you know, there's like this cultural component of I need to be the strong guy, but. Damien, well, her English and Irish too. I don't think that softened things any at all. But I think he, he wanted to come across as being a very strong, bipolar disorder and A DHD and back in the eighties and early nineties, Our field didn't know what to do with that. Mm-hmm. They barely knew how to even. Recognizing. So Damien was difficult in a lot of places to get along with, A lot of it was the mood swings and the A DHD and the emotional So we had some ambiguity in our relationship, some ambivalence in the relationship because there'd be some times where like I wanted to. Smack snot out of him. And then there were other times, all I wanted to do was ride my lungs around. And I remember I had him on the back of my bike. We were kids and we were riding our bikes to go to the grocery store to their cars so we could make money and bring that back to our family. Oh wow. And my brother's on the back of my bike. The brakes are wet. We come down, 'cause you know, nine year olds are brilliant. And we come down this hill. We go to turn, and I'm just trying to give you an example of what our relationship there and in my infinite brilliance at nine years old, instead of going into the parked car, I guess I decided to go into the street where it was hit a car. Went flying. And Damien, I don't even know where Damien was. And the next thing I know, you know, obviously I'm laying on the ground and you know, I've got people all around me and I'm saying, how's Damien doing? Is Damien okay? And mm-hmm. My brother's going, is Chrissy okay? Is Chrissy okay? Mm-hmm. We just didn't worry about each and, but it was weird as we got older, stand to be around him because he was so difficult or he would steal and Utilizing drugs and I think it was a lot of self-medication for what was going on. And at 22 years old, he died from a drug overdose on Christmas day. I feel like what I just said doesn't even capture him.

Music Playing: 7:47

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 7:48

But then there's wonderful, you know, stories stories where it was extremely difficult and a family that didn't have a lot Two parents that are barely old enough to really have a family. If somebody gave me a kid at 20 years old, no. I can barely deal with the Delaware wrecking crew that lives But you don't know that at that age. You don't know that. So I'm being brought up by two parents who had their own addiction Mm-hmm. And you don't know that. You just know that you're trying to be whatever role you are in the family. And I was the older, I even have a younger sister, Danielle, The two of them were closer. Mm-hmm. 'cause they would hang out a lot more. And I was also on a very different path. Mm-hmm. So that was the other thing is like, I was on this other path It was very different than his. He was a black sheep and I was the golden child. Right. I was martial arts and really good at school and did all the things and had to Mm-hmm. Because that's how I got the attention around that.

Dr. Angela Dean: 8:56

Mm.

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 8:56

Which often would take me into Take me out of being able to be a sibling. So I lost some of that opportunity of knowing what it was like to actually have a sibling to whom I could have a close relationship. And then start as years go by and as you move into adulthood, start thinking about, you know, how were the holder of the family history. Mm-hmm. We are the sharing. Of the trauma and we could share those experiences and who's gonna take care of mom and dad as they get older and all that. That was stripped and ripped away from me. I feel robbed, so I went on the scenic route, but you're gonna have to do

Dr. Angela Dean: 9:34

No, that's okay. I think that was really helpful. What was the age difference? Four

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 9:38

years

Dr. Angela Dean: 9:39

between these? Yeah. Four years. You were older.

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 9:41

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Angela Dean: 9:41

I think that story says so much about both of you. Right. You we're both worried about the other? Yes.

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 9:48

Oh yeah, yeah,

Dr. Angela Dean: 9:48

yeah. That of course, nine year olds should not be making those decisions.

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 9:53

He was running on the seat of my back and I

Dr. Angela Dean: 9:57

Yeah.

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 9:57

Nobody's watching out for us. Nobody's in. Don't do dumb that crap like that. What are you thinking? Yeah.

Dr. Angela Dean: 10:03

So as adults, well, he was barely an adult when he died.

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 10:07

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Angela Dean: 10:08

Did your relationship change at all?

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 10:10

We were more estranged. We were more estranged because, well, my mom and dad aren't alive I've disclosed this anyway before, but, so 18, when I was 18 years old, I launched Mm-hmm. Like as soon as I graduated high school, I was out and went off to college. And that was a whole debacle, but whatever. But I, and I didn't realize it 'cause I didn't really understand Mm-hmm. And drug addiction looked like. But I guess from the time I was 18, getting up to about 26 years of age, the addiction problems in my family became completely pervasive. Mm-hmm. My mother, my father, my sister, and my brother all addicted to heroin, marijuana, cocaine, and I didn't know, we went from being a really weirdly enmeshed family. Mm-hmm. To basically, I was ostracized. I didn't understand why I was being ostracized. I didn't recognize it. I just know that I felt like really ripped apart and rejected and sad and angry and It wasn't like I was asking my parents for money. We didn't have any, so. Mm-hmm. I went to school on a scholarship. I was barely surviving myself. I was bouncing around trying to find places to live and stuff All of a sudden my mom and dad just weren't there. I would call and people wouldn't answer, and Damien like disappeared. Then he would go in and out of like jail work release and God knows 'cause the, the seven year difference was a lot. That was a lot to try to bridge. It remains a problem. So I would say as we got older, we became more distant.

Dr. Angela Dean: 11:58

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 11:59

And so I feel like I lost my brother I lost him to drug use and when I moved out I lost him 'cause I was ostracized. Then I lost him when he died and also lost any of the potential With him and a lot of unfinished business.

Dr. Angela Dean: 12:18

I was

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 12:18

just

Dr. Angela Dean: 12:18

thinking that

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 12:19

phrase. Yeah. And I've done a lot of work around that. Mm-hmm. Lot of talk, you know, when you're aol, like you said, I did my whole dissertation on adult surviving siblings, of course, right? Mm-hmm. I'm gonna try, like you said, we're gonna try to figure it our ourselves out, and Yeah. Lots of therapy, which I'm still in and always will be. I've told my therapist, she's supposed to be my friend, my My colleague perfectly well aware. I'm having a ton of transference. Yeah. We laugh at it. Yeah. Like we know where the boundary is. But yeah, I need her to be all those things along with every one of my friends. But going back to your question, it became more estranged, I just, I didn't see him for an entire year. Mm-hmm. And then he died. So I hadn't seen Damien for a year and he died. Next time I saw him, he was dead. It had been a year. Yeah. And then he was dead. And then I got to see him in the emergency room, which was awful.

Dr. Angela Dean: 13:16

Yeah. What do you wanna share about the loss story?

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 13:19

Oh my God, it's a big question. I think I need more help with that question.

Dr. Angela Dean: 13:23

Okay. So I know a little bit about. This from

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 13:26

right open? You can, it's so it's all, you can open it all. I'm okay.

Dr. Angela Dean: 13:30

You're estranged for that year. You mentioned that already that you lost him on Christmas. Do you wanna walk us through that holiday season

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 13:37

at all? Yeah. What happened that night? So Christmas Eve, I was, so, at this point I wasn't married, Apparently I like to collect them. I was with my first husband. I know I got the door closed so you can't hear it. Alright. I was with my first husband and we had 17 people coming over for Christmas dinner. I don't what the hell I was thinking. And somehow, some way my parents ended up deciding that they were I was living in Pennsylvania, they were living in Jersey Point. Again, I didn't see them a lot, but they decided to come, And then. Damien called and I found out that he had run from work release two days before So I have lots of feelings about that. I think he was just freaking out that he wasn't gonna have the structure himself and he ran with a friend and at one point he was on the phone. Either he called or I called. I don't remember. I said, Damien, why aren't you here? And he's, well, I, you know, I just ran from work release. I'm like, I am well aware, but I haven't seen you in a year. Where are you right now? I'm here at mom and dad's. I'm like, okay. And I was like, well, you know, having Christmas dinner. And he's like, well, I'm here with my friend. And I'm like, well, I don't want, you know, two felons at my house. I was like, but it would be nice to see you. But he can't. He's Well, I'm here with him. I'm like, well, he can't come. And, and everything was going on around me and I said, look, I gotta go. I gotta make dinner. I love you. Bye. So very last thing I ever said to my brother was, I love you. Which I hang on to that a lot. Mm-hmm. We have the dinner, all of that. At this point, I'm recognizing what drug use looks like. I can see my parents are completely effed up. I don't know how much I'm allowed a curse on your thing, but I'm Italian. You can curse. Oh, I can curse. Okay. They were totally fucked up. I get a call that night late, like before, before midnight, so that's Christmas, and it was after the thing, and it was my sister like freaking out. Damien's dead, Damien's dead. I'm like, what are you talking about? Damien's dead. Damien's dead at mom's house. She's like freaking out.

Dr. Angela Dean: 15:52

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 15:53

Now she lives not far from me, like a few miles from me, and I just go into Parentified role like mm-hmm. We don't know that. We don't have all of the answers yet. I'm just gonna be calm. I'm freaking out, but okay. I'm gonna be calm. And now we gotta drive to New Jersey. And I don't even witness, I'd never even been to their house much less, And, uh, picked up Danielle and her boyfriend at the time, And it, and I regret that she doesn't remember this, but I regret this. I was like, just Danielle, stop crying. We do not know what's going on yet. Mm-hmm. That's never anything I would say now, but at that,

Dr. Angela Dean: 16:30

especially doing what you. Too. Now,

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 16:32

I'm sure you would not say that. Yeah. Like that whole move like on my part. But I think it was just a reflection of what was going on inside of me. Mm-hmm. And I just couldn't see it. It was just too much like right there. So we drive and we park in the parking lot of the emergency room and I can hear my mom scream me and that, that's when I realized he was dead. I walk in. I think one of the things, like even when I look back on it now that pissed me off so bad is like the nurses looked like they didn't know what the hell to do. They just looked so uncomfortable. There was nobody in there trying to console mom. I just know they were sitting behind the desk. I remember that very clearly. I walk into this room and Damien's on the table, gray

Dr. Angela Dean: 17:18

blue,

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 17:19

and my mom and dad sitting on. It would be his right side. My mom sobbing. I don't even remember if my dad was crying. I don't think so. That that comes into play later on. But, and even my husband, who was a Marine and German in his background, he was crying and that probably was first time I ever seen that man cry. And I remember going out to the nurses' station and them We should probably give her something to calm her down. I'm like, well, you have to be careful 'cause she's a heroin addict. Be careful you can't give her like a benzodiazepine. 'cause I don't know what that's gonna do to her. And I was so ashamed.

Dr. Angela Dean: 17:57

You were ashamed? Yeah.

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 18:00

For my family, but as a part, my, as a family member. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. I don't even, I know my sister that was there, obviously, but I think I have my own level of shock, so it was so traumatic, you know? Unanticipated loss, and then there's, you know, traumatic loss. And this absolutely was a traumatic loss. Right. And I didn't really even understand what was happening. I don't remember leaving. I don't remember. I don't, I, I honestly cannot remember the details. Mm-hmm. After that, I later found out that later on that night of Christmas night, he and cocaine, and they got it from my ex-boyfriend who was a fucking degenerate. I didn't realize how much he was involved with all the We were long broken up at that point. So I guess he used, he hadn't used in so long being in jail that I don't think he realized that you can't just go back to using as much as you mm-hmm. Did before that. And so he had used, and his friend had watched him have a I'm pretty sure, I don't think anybody would've been able to get there on time. Mm-hmm. But I don't know. And I did find out that when my mom and dad were driving, I don't this was happening to Damien, and they're not even alive now for me to But I do remember hearing that my mom and dad were driving behind the ambulance, and my mom just kept saying, the lights aren't on. The lights aren't on. Why aren't the lights on? Dennis? Why aren't the lights on? And now I know why, you know? So this is halfway through my first Master's program.

Dr. Angela Dean: 19:42

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 19:42

A month later. So I go back to school like two weeks later or whatever. 'cause what else am I gonna do? Right, right. School, I'm good at school. Mm-hmm. Do that. Two weeks later, my sister gives birth to my nephew, who she gives after that, my mom picks up here from the east coast and moves to the So technically lost my mom to, I lost my mom.

Dr. Angela Dean: 20:09

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 20:09

To the loss anyway, you know, we My dad stayed behind, I think for a month or something, and So I lost him too. And then my sister. So then I'm left alone with out my nuclear family and just tried to move forward. I remember. A professor of mine in my family therapy class said, I And I'm like, what for? So end up going back to, I went to therapy and I was like, oh, this is my,

Dr. Angela Dean: 20:39

yeah,

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 20:40

this sucks. This sucks. And this is amazing at the same time. Right.

Dr. Angela Dean: 20:44

Well even at that moment at the hospital where you were watching out for your mom, you were as the parentified child.

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 20:51

Oh yeah.

Dr. Angela Dean: 20:52

Right. You had my

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 20:52

whole life. Yeah.

Dr. Angela Dean: 20:53

So going to therapy. Would've meant breaking some of that down.

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 20:57

Oh yeah. That wasn't fun.

Dr. Angela Dean: 20:58

Okay.

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 20:59

Because I, that's where I found That's where my therapist said, you know, are you aware that this is what this is? And I was like, and then I had to like figure out how to pull myself out of a Mm-hmm. Because those were still happening. My mom, when she moved to the Midwest, she got sober. And when my dad went out, I think he eventually got sober too. That's a whole long story, but I would very much be part of being in between. Mm-hmm. And sometimes it was really nice. My dad would call me up and be like, you have any idea how much I love your mother? That's what he would call to tell me when I moved out to go get my doctorate in And I think we moved in 2000 and. Two. I didn't talk to them for two years. I was so fucking mad at them.

Dr. Angela Dean: 21:53

Mm-hmm. I didn't talk about that enough in grief, right? The anger that we have,

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 21:58

no,

Dr. Angela Dean: 21:58

around other people in the family. Sometimes it's more acceptable to talk about the anger we have at the deceased want to necessarily always talk about that disruption in the family system.

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 22:10

I think also women are socialized to not be allowed to. Feel anger. We can be sad but angry.

Dr. Angela Dean: 22:17

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 22:18

You know, and I'm, I know gender's, fluid and in general, I know in the Italian American culture, you know, I could

Dr. Angela Dean: 22:30

Yeah.

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 22:30

And it's weird 'cause I'm finding myself feeling Of my mom and dad.

Dr. Angela Dean: 22:35

That's okay.

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 22:36

They were also amazing people.

Dr. Angela Dean: 22:38

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 22:39

And after last year, I just miss 'em a lot.

Dr. Angela Dean: 22:42

Yeah, of course you do.

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 22:43

So I feel protective of them. They were fallible human beings, right?

Dr. Angela Dean: 22:48

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 22:48

And I loved them a lot. And they were a pain in my ass all at the same time.

Dr. Angela Dean: 22:52

All of that can be true, right? All at the same time.

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 22:55

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Angela Dean: 22:55

Yeah.

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 22:56

Why did I do my makeup So stupid. Oh my God. Okay,

Dr. Angela Dean: 22:59

so you were out there. What? Made you reconnect with them?

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 23:02

Probably more therapy,

Dr. Angela Dean: 23:04

I think. Let's do a plug for therapy.

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 23:05

Yeah. Right. I think being in my doctorate program, you know, and you learn a lot.

Dr. Angela Dean: 23:11

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 23:11

You know, through being in school, you, first of all, you learn that you have every single disorder there is in the DS.

Dr. Angela Dean: 23:17

Absolutely. Mm-hmm.

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 23:18

I had everything. I had everything from schizoaffective disorder to Pretty sure I was on the spectrum like it was everything. Right. We all go through that cohort. Yeah. I don't know exactly what happened. I don't know if it was the death loss and grief course. I ended up taking the elective. I, I gotta be honest, I don't remember. All I know is I remember calling and talking about my anger and my resentment and how pissed off I was that they didn't protect us and they didn't protect him. Mm-hmm. And actually became an accessory, in my opinion, to his death. Mm-hmm. And I just put it. Out there and it was tenuous, but she listened. It's weird. I remember talking to my mom. I don't remember talking to my dad about it. I talked to my mom. I talked to my dad about it a lot, a lot later on in our lives. And then I think we just started building tenuously and Mm-hmm. I felt their shame. I heard their shame. I felt their absolute, you know, we, all of our identities got completely smashed. Right. Very disorganized. We were already screwed up, but we were our own screwed up. But we got very disorganized and I think we started to reorganize and maybe in a weird way, in a healthier way because I wasn't being parentified anymore. And if I started feeling they were trying to pull me into that place, I back out of it and be like, Nope, I, I'm not taking care of that. That's on you. And I never even thought about that till right now.

Dr. Angela Dean: 24:53

So rebuilding that.

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 24:54

Rebuilding

Dr. Angela Dean: 24:55

that and rebuilding the relationships in a way Yeah. That worked post-loss.

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 24:59

Yeah. But I'm just now realizing, you know, when we talk about meaning making and mm-hmm. It just occurred to me that I don't know if Damien hadn't died, if I would've be able to reestablish a relationship in, in a way that wasn't as parentified. I'm not gonna say it was a hundred percent not. Mm-hmm. But it definitely was healthier. The Parentification came into play a lot when af, you know, whatever, back into old roles, but ultimately I think it made us a healthier family.

Dr. Angela Dean: 25:33

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 25:34

And I didn't think about that, so Right. That's an interesting revelation doing this podcast. Oh my God, I cannot wait to tell my therapist, friend, mom, colleague,

Dr. Angela Dean: 25:43

and for our listeners, that's not normal. We're just joking about that. For those of you not in therapy,

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 25:49

it's my, it's my transference. It's healthy to have the transference. We know our boundaries, all of that. I still wanna go on a retreat with her. No, she's helped me. She's helped me a lot. I just, it's interesting,

Music Playing: 25:59

Angela. I didn't think about that till right now.

Dr. Angela Dean: 26:02

Well, I think that also brings up an interesting point around meaning making and grief in general, right? Without some of these losses, we wouldn't be doing the things that we're doing like you and I would not have met had we both not had this loss.

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 26:16

I never would've become, I can't imagine I cannot imagine. Yeah. I can't take away what happened. I'd give up my career to have my family back.

Dr. Angela Dean: 26:28

Absolutely.

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 26:28

But that's just not the reality. Reality is. Okay, well, I'm not getting in back, so what do I do with that?

Dr. Angela Dean: 26:34

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 26:34

I try to rebuild understanding Some form of benefit. It doesn't take the pain away, but it allows me to reconstruct a narrative, you what I do in the world, and the meaning behind doing like your podcast, doing and knowing that my pain and my losses can help heal thousands of people and Mm-hmm. That helps me look at my loss of Damien and say, there's my legacy.

Dr. Angela Dean: 27:08

Thank you for that. I know that when we met, we were talking a lot about your parents and your recent loss of them and your health, and you can share whatever you wish there. And it sounds like you've done a lot of work around repairing those relationships. I guess I have multiple questions and I'm asking them all at once, so that's okay. I'm just gonna say, what do you wanna say about that? And then I'll go say,

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 27:28

say them

Dr. Angela Dean: 27:28

all.

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 27:29

Where do you want me to? Where do you want

Dr. Angela Dean: 27:30

me to

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 27:30

start?

Dr. Angela Dean: 27:30

I guess the questions are like, what do you And the other thing I was thinking is. A lot of our listeners, a lot of our guests, a lot of people I've And we fear this place, including myself, that you've been in, where of our aging parent and losing them without having our sibling.

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 27:54

Right. Right.

Dr. Angela Dean: 27:55

And it strikes me like I, you know, probably two years ago if we had met, we're probably in a similar spot with that.

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 28:03

Oh yeah. I imagine. Yeah, I would think about that.

Dr. Angela Dean: 28:06

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 28:07

That was my presentation at America. The a PA and at Adec. Mm-hmm. Was on sibling loss across the lifespan and how it disrupts Right. We're the sandwich generation. We're supposed to take care of our parents. Right. And take care of our kids the same time.

Dr. Angela Dean: 28:23

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 28:23

I never knew what the plan was gonna be. 'cause with Damien dying so early, you know, that was literally half my life ago. Might as well have been yesterday and yet still half my life ago. And my sister's been estranged from the family for quite a while. She never bounced back from Damien dying. And she has her own lot of trauma and a lot of drug use And I've attempted, we're not on bad terms, we're just not close, right? Mm-hmm. So. I figured there was gonna be a time where I was gonna have to take care of one or both of my parents as much as they, they went through hell together. They were very much soulmates. Mm-hmm. They very much loved each other. And God, marriage isn't always, Hey, isn't this great? It's, who do you wanna be next to, to fight through all of the storms? And as much as the storms were really shaky in my family They never left each other 52 years. So that whole awareness that I was gonna have to take care of one or both of them as they got older, scared the shit outta me.

Dr. Angela Dean: 29:29

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 29:29

Because I was like, am I bringing 'em into my home? Like they live 1500 miles away, or 11, whatever. They live far away. They're gonna have to come here. I can't pick up my family and move out there. I don't wanna stick 'em in a home because I just. Didn't have the courage to do that. It takes a lot of courage to do that. It does. Sure does.

Dr. Angela Dean: 29:47

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 29:48

But I might have had to, you know, my mom had All these, you know, health, the health related stuff started happening. They were very much like young, older adults. Like my father was still working. He loved to work. I just thought, if my dad dies, my mom's not gonna survive that. But if my mom dies, I think my dad would survive it for a while, and I was right. So when they died last year, and we can talk about that, but when we, when they died last year, there was part of me, I wasn't relieved that they were dead. I was relieved that the pressure of what the hell I was going to do later on in my life in order to take care of them was not going to have to be called into question. And I, I feel some guilt about that. But I think knowing like what I do and knowing that it's okay to feel that way. It doesn't mean that it still doesn't bring up these little in my stomach.

Dr. Angela Dean: 30:44

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 30:45

You know, I still have that, but I understand it. I would still bring them to, mm-hmm. To my home. I still would've done that. But there was part of me that was, they were gonna be financially dependent And I am getting to a point in my life where my stepsons are moving outta phase of my own life and things that I wanna do, but that would've had to have And I hope that doesn't make me sound cold because I would in a second. Absolutely. But I think that there's part of me that didn't want my identity

Dr. Angela Dean: 31:19

and

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 31:20

that's just the reality of it. I grew up

Dr. Angela Dean: 31:22

Well, you've also been a caregiver, right? Your entire life. Entire life.

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 31:27

My, my freaking career. Exactly. A caregiver, you know what I mean? Which I love. My career. Don't get. I do. I love my, I wouldn't take that back for a second. I love what I do. Last year was, was hell. It was interesting how later on in my life I became very close to my dad.

Dr. Angela Dean: 31:41

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 31:42

Not as close to my mom when growing up I was But my dad and I, if I was in the car, I was driving somewhere, I'd call my dad. Mm-hmm. And. Sometimes he would just call and just say, I'm just calling 'cause I love That's what he would say. And you're brilliant. And you're kind, and I'm so proud of you and people are And then of course with his little bit of narcissism would go, but Like Jesus, right? Listen, you can't even gimme a compliment without turning it into about you. But that was my dad. He was a musician. He was on the stage, and he wasn't a musician on a stage later on in Always, always try to teach me the guitar. I don't know. He had that patience. I didn't even have that much patience for me, much less him have that patience. So the traumatic way he died, the last time I saw my dad though, was when my mom 'cause I got a knee replacement and my mom planned on staying and taking care of me and she had done that when I got my other neighbor placed in 2019. So she was gonna stay. My dad drove her out and then he was gonna drive back. But then four days later I was diagnosed with leukemia. I wasn't allowed to leave the hospital and they stayed about a week and a half. And then they didn't know what to do with themselves. They couldn't take care of me in the hospital. They came all the time they were there. Mm-hmm. Sometimes I'd be like, you don't have to be here the whole time. All you're doing is watching me watch TV and get a lot of chemo And I remember them coming to me after Christmas. 'cause obviously before Christmas nobody was going anywhere. 'cause that was the anniversary of Damien's death. Mm-hmm. And they said, what do you want us to do? Do you want us to stay? Do you want us to go? And I was like, there's no re reason for you guys to stay. I get why you would want to go back. You know, I love you if you're local, it'd be different. You know? You know, it's okay. I am not mad and I really wasn't. Not even a little bit. So the last time I saw them was when they were out here trying to take care of me.

Dr. Angela Dean: 33:50

I wonder how that feels to say that out loud, knowing talking about how you were taking care of them for much of your life.

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 33:56

I've said it a lot. It feels good to say that. That's not new to me. I've wrapped my head around that over and over again over the past. But they got to take care of you half. Yeah, I love that. Just like I hang on to having been, the last thing I said, Time my parents were together and with me was them taking care of me. I cherish that. Not the last memory I had of my mom, but I still cherish that.

Dr. Angela Dean: 34:25

Yeah. So you've been studying sibling loss for a long time. Driven by your loss over Right. Our listeners tend to range from, they lost their sibling So do you have a message you want to share across the lifespan?

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 34:42

First off, this sucks.

Dr. Angela Dean: 34:43

Yeah.

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 34:44

And there's nothing that's going to allow it to suck and allow yourself to feel the conflicting emotions. 'cause there might be, I don't know, the range of ties of that Tight and two peas in a pod, or if you were estranged or it was, you know, your one-year-old brother and you were five, who knows? But allow yourself to feel all the feels and give yourself permission for that. Even if they're uncomfortable. Realize that how you understand who you are and what those Are not coming back. And I don't mean that in a mean way, I'm just saying we You have to figure out who you're gonna become.

Dr. Angela Dean: 35:29

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 35:30

And that's a natural adaptive process. And it'll come naturally if you allow yourself to do it. Mm-hmm. You allow yourself to go through it. There's no resolution of grief. There's integration, there's figuring out how to maintain a continued bond, understanding that it's a cultural thing, you know? Right. You have to make sure it's culturally right

Dr. Angela Dean: 35:48

or appropriate depending on the relationship.

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 35:50

Yeah, exactly.

Dr. Angela Dean: 35:51

Yeah.

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 35:51

That it's okay to find joy and It's okay to not feel ready for that. Your loss is gonna be different than my, I will never look at you, Angela, and I know exactly how you feel. Right. I could never, ever say that to you.

Dr. Angela Dean: 36:07

Yeah.

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 36:07

Right. So people say dumb shit when they think they're helping you.

Dr. Angela Dean: 36:12

Absolutely.

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 36:13

And one thing you might wanna do is think about ways of how you're gonna respond to the dumb things that people say.

Dr. Angela Dean: 36:20

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 36:20

Because a lot of times they come from very loving places. Other times people are just stupid and they don't think Other times they're, it's just triggering their own stuff and they So know that the loss of your sibling will come back up. In different places at different times. You know what we would call a sudden transitory? Upsurge of grief?

Dr. Angela Dean: 36:43

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 36:44

I call 'em a thug. I don't know where I read that. I stole,

Dr. Angela Dean: 36:47

theres rando.

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 36:47

Okay.

Dr. Angela Dean: 36:48

Yeah. Yes.

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 36:49

She was in my dissertation all over the place. I love her. I've talked to her before. So we have these thugs allow them to be there. It might be 'cause of a holiday. It might be, 'cause you saw a blue car and your sister drove a blue car. Mm-hmm. Let yourself have 'em and realize you're not back to where you It's just in a different, complicated. Crazy way, but you're gonna hit milestones in your life and there's gonna be a whole And as you get older and you had these, you know, who were, who was gonna be talking about our family holidays, who was, who's taking care of Christmas this Mm-hmm. Like all these things are gonna change, and it is gonna require adaptation and To give yourself permission for things to change without feeling like you have And that's, I can say that it sounds very theoretical and very

Dr. Angela Dean: 37:49

Absolutely. And I think giving yourself permission to do that is sometimes hard. I also grew up in a Italian America. Family where these expectations, Sunday dinners or mm-hmm. You have to be at the holidays or you have to do X, Y, Z Guilt. Yeah. We actually do 13th. Okay. Yeah. Allowing yourself that permission to say, that doesn't work for me

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 38:13

right

Dr. Angela Dean: 38:13

today. It might next year. It might tomorrow, but giving yourself permission to disappoint people so

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 38:22

There's a lot of, and obviously we don't have to get into it, but one of the presentations I do is grief around holidays. The different things that you can do and different things to And my dissertation was on the use of nature-based rituals. So of course I'm gonna throw rituals all in there, but that's not the only thing. There's a lot of like simple things. 'cause cognitively you may not be doing so well physically, You might have been a caregiver for your sibling. And you watched your sibling die, you go from being a caregiver to now what? All of a sudden everything is gone.

Dr. Angela Dean: 38:57

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 38:58

The whole way you ran your life is immediately switched off as soon as the death of your sibling happens. That's a huge freaking adjustment.

Dr. Angela Dean: 39:13

Sure is. Yeah.

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 39:14

You know, different roles. So, yeah, you're right. So there is that. Get help if you need to. My encouragement, and I say this a lot, is if you're going to find a therapist that almost every single therapist will in their advertisements say that their grief specialists, because they have a lot of clients that grieve, everybody grieves. Mm-hmm. That's like the point.

Dr. Angela Dean: 39:41

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 39:42

Every therapist is gonna have clients that grieve call. Ask questions about their training. If you want somebody who truly specializes in this, ask them about their training. Ask them about how they understand grief. Don't be afraid to ask questions. You're hiring somebody.

Dr. Angela Dean: 39:57

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 39:58

That's what I say to my, if I have new clients, I'm

Dr. Angela Dean: 40:03

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 40:03

I'm seeing if you wanna hire me to do Yeah. If I'm good enough to do this work with you.

Dr. Angela Dean: 40:07

Yeah.

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 40:07

You know, you're not

Dr. Angela Dean: 40:08

right. Not every therapist is a good fit, and no, not all of us. Most of us actually don't. Have the group training. Right? Oh yeah. So I think you and I know what we would ask.

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 40:20

Sure.

Dr. Angela Dean: 40:21

What should our listeners ask for if they're not first, what they're working with, I think that's an easy Let's maybe move on. Yeah.

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 40:29

Next,

Dr. Angela Dean: 40:30

next one. Well, where else are you doing your training? Was it one class? Yeah. Is this what you mostly work with? How do you define us?

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 40:39

I would say, well, first off, don't And you know, go see somebody for two or three sessions, it doesn't work. Leave, go find another one. Yeah. I had three therapists out here in Delaware before I Mm-hmm. It's okay. Questions exactly what you just said. Help me understand what your training is in grief. Did you take a class, like you said, or do you take CEUs? How do you understand what the grieving process looks like? Mm-hmm. Have you ever, you know, learned about prolonged grief? Disorder. You know? Where did you learn about that? How long have you been in practice? How long would you say that you've been able to continue your development? As somebody who works with grief, how do you continue to keep your skills sharp? How would you identify whether or not my grief has gone into Versus a natural adaptive process. What kinds of ways do you think about helping somebody with grief? Mm-hmm. Because if they start saying cognitive behavioral therapy,

Dr. Angela Dean: 41:46

Yeah, absolutely. Mm-hmm.

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 41:47

We are not challenging irrational Everything feels irrational. It doesn't mean that it's a mental illness. So I wanna know about narrative therapy. Yes. I wanna know about somebody who can talk about fluidity and narratives. Stuff like that. What kind of interventions? Mm-hmm. Do you like to do? Yeah. That kind of thing.

Dr. Angela Dean: 42:06

Yeah. Thank you. You mentioned continuing bonds. Mm-hmm. Right. How do you stay connected or do you stay connected with Damien?

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 42:14

Oh, yeah. Oh yeah. With Damien or like Damien and now my parents too.

Dr. Angela Dean: 42:19

Yes. However you wanna answer that

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 42:21

because I'm just gonna quickly drop this. Said I lost my parents. Last time I saw my parents together was December of 2023 when Four months later, my dog died, and then four months later my dad found, fell down the basement stairs, died in the middle of the night, died. My mom hurt him, cradled him in her arms as he died, I went flying out Her older age had become the old fashioned role of the housewife, so to speak. So she didn't even know where the bank accounts were. Mm-hmm. So I went out there, shoved my grief down as best I could, and had a week try to help her get her shit together so she was gonna be able to be alone. And the day I left, I came back.

Dr. Angela Dean: 43:11

She died in her sleep a week later, and then two months

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 43:17

that I went into maintenance for my treatment. So 2024 can suck it. I hate 2024. It's the worst year of my entire life. So I've had to try to figure out how to maintain continued bonds, and then So with Damien, it used to be a little bit more complicated when it first happened. I always do a ritual, always do a ritual on that starts on Christmas Eve and I take it into Christmas Day because I can't function that day. Be with my family unless I have the container of ritual. I talk about 'em, I share stories about 'em. It was more at the beginning. It'll be 26 years this Christmas, you know?

Dr. Angela Dean: 44:02

Hmm.

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 44:03

So how, you know, I do presentations. I talk about 'em in my presentations. I talk about 'em in probably almost every single one of my presentations. I go into work and I know that the reason why I built that organization I know that and all of my employees know it, and I to the point where it's down my organization to the person who is my vice president of my company, who He's going to keep the company once I die. I just told him he has to put a picture up my of my headshot and it has to be from when I was 42, and it was a really good headshot. Cannot be the ones that just got done. You know, this hair I can't even right now. So his birthday rolls around. I attend to that. I have certain linking objects of his, I don't have a lot, At the beginning I was writing a lot of correspondence to him. Mm-hmm. I think his imprint on me those things I want to affirm. Part of who I am now. I wanna be funny. He was funny. You know, I wanna be caring. I think I am. You know, he was caring. These are ways in which I carry him and there are things that he And that's a way of remaining connected to him too. So I've internalized him some more. Not so much externalizing things as much. It's more internalizing now over the years. But this past year, you know, I did, you know, when we were at the Portland of my dad's death, and I went out into the woods and did my ritual and came Mm-hmm. And just surrounded myself with most amazing women on the planet. First of all, for your listeners, I don't think they know. I don't know if they could possibly know what a freaking wonderful person you are. You were a huge, and I don't even think, you know. How much you impacted me when I met you and how I didn't feel alone. And a lot of people are there 'cause of their losses. Mm-hmm. But you and I have a lot of parallels and I'm thankful to have met you. So thank you for that and I'm glad you were there

Dr. Angela Dean: 46:17

and I felt the same. Thank you.

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 46:20

This past year, this past Christmas sucked. I didn't do well. It was probably. The only time I can remember even through all the cancer treatment and a couple days before Christmas, you know, you have that anticipation knowing I'm estranged from my sister Damien's death is there. I actually woke up. I don't think I've ever, I actually woke up the Sunday before Christmas and thought to myself, I don't think I would care if I didn't wake up. I never felt like that, so I immediately reached out to my support system. And I called my best friend who's in California, and I told her and know, again, my support system, everybody wants to come to my house. And they went, I'm so lucky. But like, the day after Christmas, my best friend called me and she And I was like, well, I'm doing a lot better. I was, I'm so freaking thankful to get through the day. And she goes, me calling was, you know, helpful and I was like, yeah, of course. It was helpful. So if I was there for a few days, that would probably still be helpful. And I'm like, oh my God, are you coming out here? Is she on your front porch currently? She is so busy. She picked her ass up, flew out here for two and a half days just to be with me.

Dr. Angela Dean: 47:34

Oh.

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 47:34

Through all of that. And I would do the same, you know, for her. And I have I for different things, you know, where, you know, she says help. I say help. What? Do you need me to jump over? Mm-hmm. I'll be there. Um, my way of staying connected is to allow myself to feel it, but I

Dr. Angela Dean: 47:51

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 47:51

But to acknowledge and admit. I actually had this like kind of passive, I didn't have a sense There wasn't like, oh, if I'm dead, I'll be able to reunite with my brother. Mm-hmm. Like I didn't have that by any stretch, but I just had this whole, this is so big and so heavy that I cannot hold it right now. Mm-hmm. It's just too much. I don't wanna be with it anymore.

Dr. Angela Dean: 48:15

So. Well, and you had also just lost your dog and your health and your parent.

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 48:21

All the things.

Dr. Angela Dean: 48:21

So all of the things on an anniversary that

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 48:27

Yep.

Dr. Angela Dean: 48:27

So it makes sense.

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 48:28

Yep.

Dr. Angela Dean: 48:29

I'm glad that you have a great support system.

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 48:31

Oh my God, I never would've gotten through it. Yeah. Please have a support system. That's another thing I would just say. Mm-hmm. If you don't have a support system, see what you can do to develop one or find Be surrounded by people who will acknowledge and validate the way that you feel and not make you feel like you should be feeling a different way.

Dr. Angela Dean: 48:50

Right. Absolutely. And I think in this disenfranchised loss of sibling loss and also the stigma

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 48:59

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Angela Dean: 48:59

Finding people, and maybe this is also a question when Making sure that they're not invalidating those losses for you as well.

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 49:08

Or you're not invalidating it for yourself. Absolutely. Terms of lack of self-compassion.

Dr. Angela Dean: 49:13

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 49:13

What I would consider like a self oppression.

Dr. Angela Dean: 49:16

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 49:16

Where you're internalizing the cultural expectations not only from just everyone around you, but in your own cultural expectations. Yeah. If those aren't landing with you, you taking away your acknowledgement Is going to make this worse.

Music Playing: 49:39

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 49:39

Significantly worse. And if people around you are doing that, find some ways. I, I coach it. It's a real quick one if you want me to share with you. Yeah, I do. I teach my clients and I do it myself. A a sandwich way of approach. Somebody, especially if somebody's coming to me, you know, or going to the client Oh, he's in a better place. He's not suffering. No, he is not. He's not fucking here. And it's not a better place. If he was in a better place, he'd be here. Right. So sometimes when people say stupid things like that and they're coming from this place of wanting to say something helpful, I will role play with my clients. Okay. Let's start with look. You know Angela, I know what you're saying right now. You're trying to help me feel better, and I appreciate that 'cause that But what you just said made me feel shut down because I felt like feeling because I'm supposed to be feeling what you have just said. I should be thankful or relieved. Really, you know what would be helpful right now, just give me a hug or just ask

Dr. Angela Dean: 50:54

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 50:54

How is Damien doing? And that would be so helpful for me. And I just want you to know that, and I'm telling you this So you don't just tell somebody that they hurt you, that they hurt you. When they hurt you, you tell them what to do so they don't do something stupid. 'cause people will say dumb things 'cause they don't know what else to say.

Dr. Angela Dean: 51:13

Right. I like how your end part of that sandwich is very specific. It's not like it would be helpful if you just ask how I'm doing once in a while. If you're very specific in this moment, this is what would be helpful.

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 51:26

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Angela Dean: 51:27

Yeah. And you're validating your own emotions in that middle part of that

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 51:30

or your experience. Also need to know what is helpful for you too.

Dr. Angela Dean: 51:33

Absolutely.

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 51:34

Like become aware of, you know, is Am I really uncomfortable saying that? It would be really helpful if you could just take over, you know, you know,

Dr. Angela Dean: 51:47

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 51:48

That would make me feel very cared for. 'cause that's what, you know, Damien used to do something like that.

Dr. Angela Dean: 51:53

Right.

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 51:53

So be clear about what you need.

Dr. Angela Dean: 51:55

Yeah. Thank you for that. Is there anything else that you wanted to share today or talk about that we didn't?

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 52:02

No, I just wanna just thank you.

Dr. Angela Dean: 52:05

Thank you.

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 52:06

We'll see how it unravels as we're I do want to say, I think sometimes the second year can be worse than the first.

Dr. Angela Dean: 52:14

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 52:14

So you got all the firsts and you're a Mm-hmm. And then that fog begins to lift and then you can become full,

Dr. Angela Dean: 52:28

mm-hmm.

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 52:28

Of life without the fog. And that provides you with opportunity. To lean into your grief, but to understand that it's okay to take

Dr. Angela Dean: 52:40

right?

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 52:40

It's okay for the second year, the third

Dr. Angela Dean: 52:44

mm-hmm.

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 52:45

Harder

Dr. Angela Dean: 52:46

and I think not expecting every year to be Yeah.

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 52:51

No, I think you're right. 'cause some Christmases are fine and other ones I'm like, mm-hmm. I do not even wanna get out of bed.

Dr. Angela Dean: 52:57

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 52:57

Just sucks as long. Yeah. If you knew my brother, you would know. He would pick a freaking day that there was no damn way I was gonna forget it. I

Dr. Angela Dean: 53:04

hear

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 53:04

that. It kind of goes back and forth with some stories that we have. Yeah. Like stories around Christmas.

Dr. Angela Dean: 53:09

Yeah.

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 53:09

So it's interesting.

Dr. Angela Dean: 53:11

That might be a nice segue into my last question for you. Okay. What are some of your favorite memories? Mm-hmm. Of you and Damien?

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 53:18

So, I got this one. I was just telling this one 'cause I, I was presenting on a grief friend I remember when I was nine

Dr. Angela Dean: 53:27

After you hit a car.

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 53:28

It was, this was, I was just realizing, no, it was 'cause this one got stolen 'cause we lived in such a crappy neighborhood, was five and we decided, you know, Christmas Eve to go and, you know, like going under barbed wire and we're like low crawling into the living room. Looking at the tree and looking at the presence under the tree, but then a sliding glass door, and I could hear the clicking of a 10 speak bike. Do you know what I'm talking about? Yeah. So it was going across and instead of us running back to our We just played possum and laid on the floor and pretended we were asleep, snoring and instead of my parents getting pissed, they're just laughing at this That was one of my favorite memories of him. And then another favorite memory, which is interesting, it's also Christmas is. Stockings were a big deal in our family. Mm-hmm. Because again, you can put a lot of little things in there. My mom wrapped everything. Everything mm-hmm. To put in there. So the stockings were like filled with shit like socks and

Dr. Angela Dean: 54:46

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 54:47

And we would each give each other a So one year I opened up my stocking, taking all the other things out, and I look at the bottom of my stocking and there's a pile of colored chalk. And I'm like, who put. A pile. First of all, you ruin the inside of my stocking. Now I got chalk all up in my stocking. You have to have a conversation about that. But second, who put a pile of chalk in the bottom of my stocking and my brother, as He was excited about it. I'm like, why didn't you dump it out of the box? Answer? Because it made it look like there was more, and you might have a point there. So to this day, I remember like we were learning the intervention called photo you take pictures of things that remind you of the person, and it was at the going into the creative arts studio where Sharon was, Sharon Strauss's, Anyway, I go in there and I saw a thing of colored chalk. I didn't think two seconds of it and that entire memory came back to me immediately. Immediately. I took a picture of that chalk and then came back and we, you know, talked about our pictures and that's another one of my favorite memories. So it's interesting that they're both, I knew, I recognize that

Dr. Angela Dean: 56:06

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 56:07

That's two of my favorites. We have other ones, but those are two of my favorites. Yeah.

Dr. Angela Dean: 56:12

Well, thank you for sharing.

Dr. Christina Zampitella: 56:14

Thank you for having me. Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Angela Dean: 56:17

Thanks for coming on. It was so good to see you. Thank you so much for listening. Our theme song was written by Joe Millwood and Brian Dean, and If you would like more information on the broken pack, go to our Be sure to sign up for our newsletter, wild Grief, to learn about opportunities and receive exclusive information and grieving tips for subscribers. Information on that, our social media and on our guests can be found in the Please like, follow, subscribe, and share. Thanks again.