Music: 0:02

If tomorrow starts without me,. there's something you should know. While I hold you close, never let you go.

Angela M. Dean PsyD FT: 0:11

Hello, and welcome to the Broken Pack, a podcast focused on giving SW loss survivors a platform to share their stories and to be heard. Something that many sibling loss survivors state that they never have had. Sibling loss is misunderstood. The broken Pack exists to change that and to support survivors. I'm your host, Dr. Angela Dean. In today's episode, I spoke with Susan Kellum, the author of Susan is a journalist and a writer. She started her career at Rolling Stone Magazine and she's the surviving sibling. We spoke about losing her brother to suicide and where she is in Take a listen

Music: 0:59

because you never know you. You just never know.

Angela M. Dean PsyD FT: 1:04

Content warning, today's episode contains talk of suicide. Please take care. As you listen to the episode, there are resources in the So welcome to the show. How would you like to introduce yourself to our listeners?

Susan Kellam: 1:18

I tend to think of myself as a long time journalist, although my career has had a wide spectrum in terms of starting out this sort of more musical scene. Sometimes I think it's funny to say, I started my career at Rolling Stone my full-time career at the Brookings Institution as a communications expert, So it's just like I went the, and I say my career ended, but when I moved up here, I was still doing quite a bit of writing and editing.

Angela M. Dean PsyD FT: 1:54

Do you consider yourself retired?

Susan Kellam: 1:56

No, I don't consider myself retired. I am writing now, I will say like my first 12 years moving from Washington to Maine. My first 10, 12 years I was. Really busy. I mean, I had so much because I had been at Brookings, so I knew people. And then the Obama White House brought me in to do the economic report and then a lot of other people were calling me, and I just did so much work. I had the shingle word sharpener, and I finally just said to I'm just not picking anymore clients. Yeah. But I am writing. Mm-hmm. So the days are mine and I'm probably really coming to Go hiking one day, or I mean not be sitting at my desk.

Angela M. Dean PsyD FT: 2:42

Yeah. Thank you for that. And the reason we're talking is you wrote this beautiful book that you that now or throughout the interview, however you would like to do that.

Susan Kellam: 2:54

Okay.

Angela M. Dean PsyD FT: 2:54

So you were also a surviving sibling

Susan Kellam: 2:57

I am.

Angela M. Dean PsyD FT: 2:58

Before we talk about losing your brother, Robert, what would you like to say about him and introduce him to us?

Susan Kellam: 3:05

Robert was three years older than me and we had a difficult and I felt like he was my protector and he was sort of the one pillar in the And he became a fairly outgoing, amazing person, man, husband, father. He did everything with such perfect. Sure. I mean, he was so charismatic when I was in high school before he went off to college, friends would come over to my house just to go in his bedroom. Everybody really idolized him and looked up to him and he was not a tall person. Actually, I don't think he was more than five eight, but he was Big K. I was little Kate. He was big thing, and people just adored him. Mm-hmm.

Angela M. Dean PsyD FT: 4:00

I do remember chuckling out loud when I read that about

Susan Kellam: 4:05

I guess I could have taken it the wrong way in some Well, not now, but I was then and I, I'm not sure that I would have become part of a certain crowd if I had not been Robert's sister. Mm-hmm. I also think he robbed guys to ask me out on dates too.

Angela M. Dean PsyD FT: 4:25

What makes you think that?

Susan Kellam: 4:27

Because there would be certain dances and I just got the sense sister to the dance more than it would be fun to take Susan to the dance. I mean, it's funny 'cause I went to college in Madison W Constant and sometimes I wonder how much I just had to get away from that. Mm-hmm. And not be his little sister.

Angela M. Dean PsyD FT: 4:48

It struck me very much because this is your memoir and for our listeners it's called Brilliant Disguise is a memoir. It struck me a lot about how in your whole life you were trying to get out of the shadows of the difficult things that had happened.

Susan Kellam: 5:03

Right.

Angela M. Dean PsyD FT: 5:04

So it's interesting to hear you say you to get out of the shadow of being your brother's little sister.

Susan Kellam: 5:12

Yeah. I mean, it's not, I'm saying that now, I'm not sure. I mean, I was shy, so having him there, having people look at me and somebody. Was supportive to me and I remember leaving for college and suddenly They only knew me, and I think I changed a lot when I went off to college. Exactly, and I think really from there I went to New York City. I led this great sort of fun life. I mean, it was crazy and chaotic and. At times quite difficult and painful, but it was what I wanted. I was just, I wanted to really live life. It's complicated because toward the end, I mean, when he actually took In a way, there were things that I could look back on and say, of course. Why did he do those things in his life? Make odd decisions. Destructive. The beginning of understanding who Robert really was, and I was probably too young at the time to fully grasp it, but my brother was an excellent student. He was a straight A student. He was very, very smart. He went off to Penn State. Partly because our father was in Harrisburg, and I think my dad told him 'cause he was accepted to colleges that maybe he would've liked. I don't know. My mother certainly wanted him to go to the University of Virginia, but he went to Penn State and basically was not actually going to classes. So he found out his freshman year and that that's a wake up call. That's a significant wake up call. Now he had a girlfriend, Faye, and some of it was his coming back But I think that to have gone from being such a terrific student to not being a student, I mean, it was definitely a wake up call and I was young at the time. I personally hadn't left for college yet. I was finishing high school, I was applying to colleges and sometimes Always seeing Robert as my rock, that it became difficult. It was not until an incident when I was living in New York City that I understood that he was in fact vulnerable, but I had not seen him as vulnerable. And I think certainly the first significant sign was funky outta college. I mean, it made no sense.

Music: 8:34

Mm-hmm.

Susan Kellam: 8:39

I was very, very sad for him. You know, I mean, we had a, a certain bond and I hurt for him. I hurt that it happened. I, I started to understand it was partly a put down to my father. 'cause my father really wanted him to be up Penn State, but there's He was in a lot of pain. Yes. I do think that I was in a lot of pain too, and I think that some of that Now it's interesting because I was much more willing to pick up the phone and I'm really sad. I'm really just, I'm really that, and he would never have done that with me. I mean, it was very one way. Now he was the big brother, but he very much. Was there when I called. I said, you know, for any number of reasons why I was very upset and thought that I would be the one more susceptible to ultimately taking my life. But I've had so much time to evaluate. He's been gone so long. Now I just see what I've done with my life, and I think I was just I don't think that I was as affected as Robert was by the breakup of the marriage and the way it broke up and the trauma of it. He was six. I was three. So he would've been very traumatized by the fact that our father, a lawyer, was He was disbarred, he was thrown out. My mother left him. My mother took us away to my grandmother's house. We had cousins and aunts and uncles that were like the epitome were success stories, and there was Robert and I, and we were sharing a It was very hard.

Angela M. Dean PsyD FT: 10:42

How did that affect your relationship with him as a child and you were still young and sharing a bedroom and growing up?

Susan Kellam: 10:48

I always felt like he was very protective toward me. I think there were certainly times. Over the years where I became the bratty little sister. Mm-hmm. I, I was so many things. I was the bratty little sister. My childhood, from the outside, I would've looked like I was a damaged one. You know? I had pretty much one friend and I had my dog for a long time, I was very slow to become more social. I mean, some of it may be too, I was small. Also I'm a late December birthday. They pushed me ahead because they felt like I tested well, so I should go with the upper grade and never did anything when initially I really was not adjusting. I didn't adjust particularly well with school, and I didn't adjust

Angela M. Dean PsyD FT: 11:43

Yeah, that makes sense. Right. From a emotional perspective, sometimes children, I think a little less now, but. Pushed into that higher grade, and then they're not quite in

Susan Kellam: 11:54

Right. I really wasn't. I really was not. Plus I was clearly very hurt.

Angela M. Dean PsyD FT: 12:00

Mm-hmm.

Susan Kellam: 12:01

By this remarkably dramatic, sudden violent, per se. But in a way it was violent, I think, to yank children away from It was rough, but I'm not sure I really thought about a lot of One thing I should say, if you don't mind, a little bit of a segue, but in that vein, I initially wrote the book to be much more of a rock and roll story. I thought I had those just really exciting, interesting I always wanted to get it down on paper and I did, but also Robert was in it. He was definitely part of the story, but he was very much in the Was pretty much not in the book. When I started sending it out to agents, one of agents said to me, This is a good story, and I like it. She says, but I think you need to develop your brother, your brother's in it. And I clearly had the suicide in the book, but she says, you need to delve into that. Mm-hmm. And she was right. Although I think other people made similar kinds of comments, but. When I thought about it and I realized that that was what I had It took quite a few years of therapy to really come to grips with the way our childhood affected us and how differently we reacted to it. But I began to understand the ways that we were very effective. I don't know if I could have done that without therapy.

Angela M. Dean PsyD FT: 13:40

As a psychologist, I'm very happy to happy you had the support, and also, there's a little bit of sadness I feel for your younger self in which you

Susan Kellam: 13:51

In retrospect, I don't think of myself as an unhappy child. I think I had my own world. I had my dogs, my other pets, and I created an imaginary I was not unhappy in that world. I was also always. An avid reader. I still am. So books were there. I mean, I've had a lot of escapes. I just wasn't necessarily comfortable socially. Mm-hmm. Which is funny because here I am now and I'm absolutely comfortable, socially.

Angela M. Dean PsyD FT: 14:28

Glad to hear that. I recommend this book to everybody. Every one of our listeners should be this, but. It's very clear that you had to be a social person,

Susan Kellam: 14:35

but certainly by the time I arrived in New York City, actually stayed in Madison for one year after I was actually nearly gonna But one day I think I just said, I won't do this. I moved out from him, but stayed in Madison for one extra And then I realized I had to go to New York.

Angela M. Dean PsyD FT: 14:59

There was a part in the very beginning of the book. I read it like four times on page seven. You described Robert as a bulldozer and that you said, just when I thought I had Robert went and flattened it. Some things were better, kept tightly locked away from Robert the bulldozer. And I wonder if that also was a metaphor for losing him.

Susan Kellam: 15:20

I hadn't thought about that. There's no question that. He could be a very warm, comforting brother, but he was my big brother, and I think that I was so different from him in so many ways that I was easy to tease. I always sort of think, I only have one child now, so I didn't get to see how But I tend to think siblings, there's always a sibling. I don't know if rivalry is necessarily the right word, but Mm-hmm. As much as they love each other.

Angela M. Dean PsyD FT: 15:50

Right. I also only have one child. I always felt a little bit bad that my child didn't have the sibling we learn how to navigate, how to have friendship or how to mm-hmm. Solve conflict, ensure only children learn that in other ways. That is part of the role of a sibling to navigate that.

Susan Kellam: 16:07

Right.

Angela M. Dean PsyD FT: 16:07

You described so many moments as the younger sister for people, but the one where you walked into the room and made a certain Oh

Susan Kellam: 16:19

yeah. You know, 'cause I still see his friends, especially when this book came out. There was a nice book party for me in Baltimore and yeah, David so clearly Arne Schuster kissed me when I was, I don't know. I mean, I'm sure I was 12 or 13 or something. I thought the fact that I was kiss meant that I had lost my virginity. And I walked in that room and Robert wanted me out of there. He didn't, he had boyfriends over his friends. He didn't want me there, and he started to call out to my mother and I said, Which of course everybody thought was very funny, but I was really naive. But I lived in my own world back then. I didn't know I had my comfortable little. Coma. There were certainly moments, 'cause you know, Robert had his friends and Not, they weren't hot shots. They were nice guys. They were actually very nice guys. But I wanted them to like me so I could see myself. I don't remember the exact moment, but it was a story that lived on, my brother repeated it because they thought it was hysterically funny.

Angela M. Dean PsyD FT: 17:29

One of those family stories that gets retold.

Susan Kellam: 17:31

Yeah.

Angela M. Dean PsyD FT: 17:32

So there were some warning signs. It sounds like. Losing Robert over the time.

Susan Kellam: 17:38

I think the warning signs, signs started very early. Mm-hmm. But nobody picked up on it.

Angela M. Dean PsyD FT: 17:43

Mm-hmm. What was it like for you to write this and realize that those had been there

Susan Kellam: 17:48

when the incidents happened? At first, they were kind of subtle, like he was a lifeguard one summer and working with a lot of the chemicals that he had to work with. His story was that he took in this chemical. Because he thought he was exhaling, but he was inhaling or something like that. And you know, doing stuff like that, my brother was too smart It had to have been intentional. We grew up with animals, so he was certainly very comfortable with dogs, but there was an incident where a dog kind of attacked him. In retrospect, did Robert do something to provoke that dog? There were just a lot of incidents along the way that. Add it together. I mean, I could be wrong, but I think if this situation was happening in this day been a little bit more perceptive to it because there were warning signs. I mean, the big one, and I hope I'm not giving this away 'cause there were out of Penn State, then he went back to the University of Maryland. Then he dropped out when he was only two credits short of My uncle whose father had begun a big sherp factory in Baltimore at the all on as a manager, and Robert was good 'cause he was so good with people. So he was very good at what he was doing there until it came out that he was. Selling shirts on the side and pocketing the money. Then when he got caught, he went and like took a whole bottle of aspirin and a friend had to rush him to the emergency room. That was the first big sign that there was a problem. I was in New York City when that occurred, so I was at Rolling I think the general feeling was that it was best that I not go home. He was convalescing in a sense. Both my stepsister and my mother, I think kind of nicely So what I did was I went out and I bought all this fabric, this, you know, and bought all this fabric and made him a patchwork built because being I could feel like I was doing something. Mm-hmm. Or helping him put his life back together.

Angela M. Dean PsyD FT: 20:23

Yeah. So doing things kind of helps you sort out your emotions and your thoughts. It sounds like even with the running,

Susan Kellam: 20:29

it wasn't very long after that incident. It was probably within two years that he met the woman that he married, So there was this horrible situation where he was basically. Though it's a word for it, but when you're sort of taking from your suicide with aspirin, which was really definitely all a cry for help. And then all of a sudden there's Charlene. And Charlene was blonde and tall and very pretty. So it made sense. Women always liked my brother. Walking down the wedding aisle with this beautiful young girl, See I'm okay. It was very cleverer, so it made us stop working 'cause we were very worried. How long were they married when he died? He took his life on his 12th wedding anniversary. He took it on the anniversary, which I struggled with how to handle that. The book, his children who were seven and nine when he took his Early forties, but when I was working on the book, I was very conscious of them. I didn't wanna write something that that would really upset them. Mm-hmm. I did really try to soften a lot of that. Although, I mean, the fact that he took his life on his wedding anniversary, no matter which way you look at it says something.

Angela M. Dean PsyD FT: 22:04

Of course. Do you wanna talk more about where you were that day and

Susan Kellam: 22:10

It's interesting. My father, who had been disbarred and bankrupt and everything went on to become a very, very successful shopping center magnet. He built these shopping centers. I mean, he put it it all together 'cause he could do it and he did it. Mm-hmm. He was very successful in Central Pennsylvania and Robert I mean, he stayed with my uncle for a while, but he had other jobs. But then my father decided to. Put down the money to basically set up a factory, a shirt factory. Now this was not a very good time to be setting up a shirt factory. This would've been the mid 1980s when we were more and more outsourcing. We weren't doing that much factory work and mm-hmm. So timing was bad, but it does seem that he let the business fall apart. But he was hiding it. Nobody really knew how bad it was. But then he started having these like, like he, he would, you know, his whole, It's probably 'cause it's so painful to even remember it. 'cause he was bleeding. Now we know it was probably, he himself was ingesting rat poison. And the effects of that were putting him in the hospital on two or three occasions. And at that point I was very worried and I would always go We were all scratching our heads. One of his best friends is a doctor. I was in Washington at the time. I had moved to Washington and I was in my office. I remember at the computer and I must have been talking to Sandy on the realization that could Robert be doing this to, I don't remember how much We both thought that was a possibility, but I think we all kind of knew it was. When I kind of realized that it probably was, I was pretty devastated. There wasn't really anything I could do. I was the little sister, and I think it would've been within I was in that office and I was seeing somebody at that point, and we would've been together on the night that Robert disappeared. I always wondered if Robert maybe tried to reach me. I mean, probably did. But I like to think maybe he's tried and then I wish I felt bad because I was with and I guess left early 'cause I had a dog and you know, I had to take the dog home showed up and she said she didn't wanna say anything in front of this newsroom. So she was just saying that, that she needed to take me to Baltimore. I knew right away. I mean, she didn't have to tell me. I knew he'd take this slip. Yeah,

Angela M. Dean PsyD FT: 25:13

that sounds really difficult.

Susan Kellam: 25:14

It was interesting because I feel like in some ways, like they knew, supposedly for the shirt factory, but he never showed up and nobody told me. I don't know why. I was always protected in those sort of situations. They didn't want me to go. Home to Baltimore when I was in New York after his taking the aspirin and, and then they didn't want to let me know that he was missing.

Angela M. Dean PsyD FT: 25:43

I wonder if that was in some way also his

Susan Kellam: 25:49

Right, right. But it was my mother oddly doing it too. I don't know. I was very careful with both parents after all of that. 'cause it was so painful. I never would've published this book if either of my parents were alive. I think they made a lot of serious mistakes, but I don't think

Angela M. Dean PsyD FT: 26:10

Right.

Susan Kellam: 26:10

I think it had to wait, and I'm not even sure I could fully come to grips with everything that had happened until they

Angela M. Dean PsyD FT: 26:19

Right. Because it sounds like you were able to eventually forged good

Susan Kellam: 26:26

Yeah. I mean, I did. I probably wasn't the best daughter. I mean, I moved to Maine when my mother was still alive and for which I think she just had to understand that I, at that point, I just had to get away. I was living in Washington and she was in Baltimore and coming to Maine, I mean, there were so many reasons I moved to Maine. I mean, it was probably one of the best decisions I made next to having my child. But it's been great. It's been perfect for me to be living here now.

Angela M. Dean PsyD FT: 26:56

It looks snowy out there.

Susan Kellam: 26:58

It is. It is.

Angela M. Dean PsyD FT: 27:00

Do you still have relationships with his children?

Susan Kellam: 27:03

I have excellent relationships with both of his children. I'm afraid that there was a falling out with their mother very recently. It was just kind of miscommunications. My son got married and initially it was gonna be really small, and then what? They realized they wanted it to be bigger and we tried to invite her, but she felt And she says, I'm no longer family, which is painful, but But I am very close to my niece and nephew. I love saying this. I love saying it every time I say it. 'cause it makes me so happy. Both of them have advanced degrees. They're both doing great. They're both very happy. They're both married to wonderful people and they both have two. Just terrific children. So I have three great nieces and one great nephew and they're very important to me.

Angela M. Dean PsyD FT: 27:58

What a way to stay connected to family and Yeah. And him in some ways. Mm-hmm. Right. I think family dynamics with loss are so, I don't dunno if Complicated for sure when there's stigma around the death or divorce Yeah. So I'm glad that you have those relationships.

Susan Kellam: 28:20

Yeah.

Angela M. Dean PsyD FT: 28:20

Yeah. How did you share your brother with your son

Susan Kellam: 28:24

as you were raising him? Good question. Reid is named after my brother we're Jewish, so he does have the same Hebrew Robert raising Reid in the Washington area with my niece and nephew in Baltimore. I spent as much time with them. I would take the three of them on trips. To be sure I would do all kinds of things, so he was very close. I would talk to him about having lost my brother. I think it's hard on him, and I think my sense sometimes when I'm Even though these were events that happened long before he was born, I have thing that kept going through my mind over and over again was I wanted him to have. The best child. Mm-hmm. I wanted him to be happy and I wanted him to be able to thrive. There was even a period of time raising him after my father died, 'cause you know, as I said, my father had shopping centers. I got my master's in that period of time too, and was teaching, but I was out of the newsroom and I would just take read on adventures. I would pick 'em up at school. Say we're going on an adventure and we'd go to a kettle and pick out a puppy. I was a scuba diver and Reid became a scuba diver when So we went to all these island trips, diving. It was a community of divers. They all really liked Reid. Reid reminds me some of my brother. He is got a lot of my brother's charisma and charm. It was very nearing to me at his wedding to listen to all the people that Personality traits and who he was. I kept thinking they could be talking about Robert, talking about all the wonderful things he'd done for people, how funny he was. They could be talking about my brother. That's beautiful. I'm sure he's got his bad moments. I think he's happy. I mean, he's very successful. He works for Snapchat and has since almost the very beginning, so he Lives in, he lives in Manhattan. His wife also works for Snapchat. They seem very happy together.

Angela M. Dean PsyD FT: 30:42

Good. Are there things specifically about sibling loss or grief that you would want other people to know that maybe you didn't know before?

Susan Kellam: 30:51

It is such a specific loss. I have a dear friend here in, in May, and I remember one night I was seeing at the time and the phone rang and it, I thought it was odd. It was Laura, she was in Boston. She said, I have to tell you, my sister was just killed in a car accident, and I think she felt like she had to tell me because I would understand that. I think it's a very specific kind of loss. We expect to lose our parents. We're prepared for losing our parents, and certainly we're prepared as we get older. The siblings will die, but to have it be so shocking. The car accident and the suicide. I mean, not that they're really comparable, except that you The shock afterwards I was acting out. I couldn't, couldn't qualify. I was having a very hard time. Mm-hmm. Within a year of losing Robert, and I found out I was pregnant and it was sort of the first time I think, since losing Robert, that I felt an equilibrium. Yes, I am bringing this life into the world. So I think that sibling loss is very hard. I'm sure losing a husband or wife would be horrific. Losing a child is the worst of all. But losing a sibling has its own. I think that, I think it might demand more thinking through or, you know, writing a book about it because there's so many layers. Of what you're dealing with. 'cause there's clearly the loss of somebody that was very critical to you And it's losing that and yeah, it's hard.

Angela M. Dean PsyD FT: 32:48

So I'm very fond of saying that there's no They're different. We don't necessarily understand 'em unless we experience them or have someone Made sibling laws really, I don't know, this is also a personal perspective, 'cause I can see that there aren't a lot of resources for sibling loss. There are probably more now than even five years ago when I lost my brother. And certainly way more than when you lost your brother in the 90th.

Susan Kellam: 33:23

Right.

Angela M. Dean PsyD FT: 33:24

And that goes to, I think, the sibling relationship. We don't often understand the importance of that relationship. As a whole society. I was super thrilled when you reached out and sent me a copy of the book. Like, oh, this is something you've been carrying for a long time and mm-hmm. Giving permission to talk about it. And I've said this before in the podcast, and people might be sick of me saying It's probably over 60 years at this point.

Susan Kellam: 33:52

Mm-hmm.

Angela M. Dean PsyD FT: 33:53

And it was this mythical thing, And it wasn't until Tony died that I actually. Maybe that's selfish of me, but I didn't actually give a lot of thought

Susan Kellam: 34:06

Yeah. That doesn't surprise me that it seems like death or used to be, and that was very personal to the person, to the survivors, and not

Music: 34:25

Mm-hmm.

Susan Kellam: 34:25

It's something you shouldn't share. You should just suffer silently. I like to see that things are changing, you know, that you're doing what you're doing with this podcast and saying it is a very particular kind of loss.

Angela M. Dean PsyD FT: 34:40

Mm-hmm. Actually, as I was reading through your book and all of your stories and history with the music world, I kept thinking of Karen Carpenter and her brother and Wow. Like I, I know that you don't mention them in the book, but How that must have been such a public loss with the music world that wasn't probably supported in the way that it could have been. Even Right. Publicly then.

Susan Kellam: 35:06

Right.

Angela M. Dean PsyD FT: 35:06

For those of us that aren't famous, right. Like we're here struggling, trying to find, find, support and understand.

Susan Kellam: 35:13

Exactly.

Angela M. Dean PsyD FT: 35:13

Yeah.

Susan Kellam: 35:14

Yeah. I definitely acted out a lot. I was living with somebody, the father of my child. He moved out and you know, I didn't blame him. I didn't wanna be with me. Why should he? Now I should say Dick and I are to this day, very good friends and I think co-parenting when you're not living together is always a challenge. But I think we did a good job. I think we made it work. And I think the big reason that it works is that we stayed very friendly. Mm-hmm. My son was also one of those sort of. Hot shop baseball players when he was a kid in high school. In fact, he was recruited by Bates College to pay baseball. A lot of colleges I think were interested in him, so we had that and mm-hmm. Dick is athletic. I'm athletic, but I'm not talented the way they are. But you know, I think we used to, Reid was in a travel team, The team manager would always forget and just get us one room. I would say, no, we're not married, we are not staying in the same room. We can stay wherever he wants, but Dick and I are gonna be in different rooms. And there was the morning too, 'cause you know, Dick would just come over. I mean, it wasn't a big deal. I woke up one morning and he was picking Reid up early and I kind of knew it the door and get the newspaper and there was still holding the newspaper. And I looked at it, I said, wait. Barry or something. Did I like throw a blank here.

Angela M. Dean PsyD FT: 36:44

That's funny. Is there anything else we didn't talk about that you wanna talk about or would you like to say more about the book in general?

Susan Kellam: 36:50

I think the process of writing the book, which I think to say, which was that this was not a book about my brother initially. Mm-hmm. But he crept into it and apparently a fair amount of people that rent They also told me you need to develop your brother more, but. It was when this topnotch agent said, you need to develop your brother. But I went, yeah, I gotta do that. And it was painful. I mean, I'm glad. I'm very glad I did it because I think I came to a lot of understanding, I mean, we both had difficult childhoods because of my father's actions and And it was not a good way to grow up and. I had to come to grips when I lost Robert. Understanding that we both went through this trauma together. You know, it's the ACEs, the acute childhood experiences. Mm-hmm. And I've been reading a lot about it, and I talk about it in my book too, went through stuff together and he was reacting to it and I had spent my life

Angela M. Dean PsyD FT: 38:05

Absolutely.

Susan Kellam: 38:06

Once I got myself out of my Baltimore phase of kind of living that the world was fun and I was gonna have fun and you know, getting a job And it was a blast. I mean, there's no way around it. And everything I did there I did with the whole anti-nuclear movement and all those musicians, it definitely had its down moments and it had it. Disappointments, but it was fun. I mean, it's exactly how you want to live your twenties. Mm-hmm. But what I'm trying to say is it wasn't necessarily healthy and you know, I think I kind of was living on the edge in terms of I never got married. There's no doubt in my mind, you know, I've certainly been involved with men. Enjoyed relationships, but there's a point at which I can't I think that was an offshoot of what I grew up around. Mm-hmm. So I suffered too, of course, but I'm not sure I was able, until I did the book, I hadn't really understood the extent to which my childhood explains a lot of. The things I didn't do or felt incapable of doing or, and I'm sorry about that. I mean, I'm sorry that I didn't get married. I could have married my college boyfriend Dick, and I could have gotten But I mean, the point is that it's affected me. I'm also at that beautiful point in my life. Where, you know, I'm looking out now at seven and a half acres or So I'm waterfront property and I've got two dogs. So I'm always out there. I'm always running around with them in the woods and at the water and in Walterboro, Maine where it's just a phenomenal community of friends. I'm on board, so I'm like thinking this is, I hate to say final stage, but it is. I mean, this is the wind down stage of my life. Sure. I wish that I had a partner. I mean, I've had them in me, but like I said, I'm not good at those Yeah. That kind of intimacy, I should say.

Angela M. Dean PsyD FT: 40:29

Mm-hmm. Can I ask another question?

Susan Kellam: 40:31

Sure.

Angela M. Dean PsyD FT: 40:32

So before I get to the final one, so your parents I know a lot of our listeners and myself, 'cause my parents are aging, you are the last person standing in that family, that immediate family. What has that been like for you? Or even as you're talking about you're living this life

Susan Kellam: 40:55

Mm-hmm.

Angela M. Dean PsyD FT: 40:56

Not having your brother, not having your parent. What has that been like?

Susan Kellam: 40:59

I love my niece and nephews so much and I wish that they were still that happy family when my brother was alive. You know, that I don't have that. I still feel like there's this hope. And also Robert was my only sibling. Mm-hmm. So that leaves me with being the receptacle of memories. Although it's funny 'cause my nephew has been very curious lately. Not so much about Robert so much childhood. But our family coming out over to this country from Eastern Europe and is gonna up in the eastern shore of Virginia, which I think is really interesting. I actually had taken him back there when he was a child, but I'm not I mean, it's hard. It's, yeah, but I'm, I'm glad. That I have my niece and nephew and certainly very glad I have a son. I think if I didn't have a child right now, I might feel like there It's like I can say why I never married, that's no omission, but that's not the Whereas I think if I had never had a child, that would've been a significant omission and you know, just sort of to tie it all back, I got pregnant. Within months of losing my brother. And there's, I'm not a spiritual person per se. There's always this part of me that feels like it was kind of a beyond the grave kind of, here I am using birth control, but getting pregnant. Why did it happen when it happened?

Angela M. Dean PsyD FT: 42:35

So balancing that life and death at the same time.

Susan Kellam: 42:38

Yeah.

Angela M. Dean PsyD FT: 42:38

Thank you for that. Well, and thank you so much for writing your book and. Being so vulnerable with your readers. I connected with many, many parts of your story. I'm

Susan Kellam: 42:48

glad,

Angela M. Dean PsyD FT: 42:48

like George, but yeah. Very much connected.

Susan Kellam: 42:51

Yeah, I mean, I, it's interesting because to be honest with you, I, I always thought the real selling point of the book was the rock and roll. Mm-hmm. But in fact, it hasn't been, I haven't done a lot of media, but all the feedback I get from people about the book, they don't talk about the rock moral. They talk about it being very much a sibling book.

Angela M. Dean PsyD FT: 43:11

There's another author that I interviewed He wrote the book Brothers. He's a historian and he set out to write his book on very specific parts of history same feedback from his editor and his agents, your brothers part of this, you And so he did. And it's actually called Brothers. So I think it speaks to how much these relationships and these losses. Help our narrative for literally the narrative of your book change So thank you.

Susan Kellam: 43:47

Thank you.

Angela M. Dean PsyD FT: 43:48

You're welcome. My last question to you is what are some of your favorite

Susan Kellam: 43:54

My father remarried fairly quickly once he sort of got his stuff together, you know, I mean, he was not gonna be a lawyer. He met a woman who ironically had gone to high school with my mother, surely. And they got married fairly quickly. But again, my father had no money and he was a caretaker. They moved to the Vagabond Motel in Aberdeen, Maryland. When Shirley and my father first got married, that was It was, it was definitely a, you know, rent by the hour kind of place. For some reason. I loved that motel. I loved going there. And I just remember the woman that my father married, had two And I said the last place they wanted to be living at was a sleep at Motel. So they were not there on the weekends at all. So Robert and I would be taken there. I don't know whose bedroom we would sleep in, but we were And if I ever got kind of concerned, 'cause it was an old house and I'm sure there were mice on the walls and stuff like that. Robert would just put the covers over us and bring in a flashlight That's a really good memory. I mean those memories, but you know, there's a lot of good memories. Mm-hmm. When he and his wife would come to stay with me in New York. I like to walk and I call, doesn't bother me. Obviously I'm living in Maine. I mean, none of this bothers me and mm-hmm. You know, things would happen. Like they'd come and stay with me at. I lived in Chelsea and they would wanna go to have Chinese food in Chinatown. I said, well, we can walk now. They didn't know how far it was. I did, and you know, it was kind of like, my brother was very, very funny. He had a witty, witty sense of humor and I just remember cracking I know he's absolutely adored me, but he also loved that I was so different. That I was quirky, you know, and I am. And that's who I am. And certainly my New York years were particularly quirky. I love that he laughed at me. Mm. I love that he could make your work out of it, but he was also, you know, until the very end, the person I turned to of him.

Angela M. Dean PsyD FT: 46:19

Well, thank you for that. It's been a pleasure to talk to you and thanks for being on the show. Thank you so much for listening. Our theme song was written by Joe Mylward and Brian Dean, and was performed by Joe Mylward. If you would like more information on the broken pack, go to our Be sure to sign up for our newsletter, wild Grief, to learn about opportunities and receive exclusive information and craving tips for subscribers. Information on that, our social media and on our guests can be found in Podcasts, please like, follow, subscribe, and share. Thanks again.