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If tomorrow starts without me,. There's something you should know. while I hold you close, never let you go.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 0:11

Hello, and welcome to the Broken Pack, a podcast focused on giving sibling loss survivors a platform to share their stories and Sibling loss is misunderstood. The broken Pack exists to change that and to support survivors. I'm your host, Dr. Angela Dean. In this episode, I spoke with Earla. Together with Monica Murphy, she wrote the book, Living with Sibling Grief, Imagining A Way

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cause you never know. You just never know.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 1:06

Good morning to you. Good afternoon here. Good morning. How would you like me to introduce you to our guests?

Earla Legault: 1:13

My name is Earla Dawn Legault. I live in Harrison Hot Springs, British Columbia. I am from a family of six, sadly, my sister passed away almost

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 1:32

Oh. I did read that in the book rereading your book, I noticed you've had many secondary losses as a result of losing your sister and

Earla Legault: 1:42

Yes.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 1:43

But before we get to all of the ways that you've become a bereaved sibling, how would you like to introduce Leigh-Ann to us?

Earla Legault: 1:50

This is where I usually cry

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 1:51

Yeah.

Earla Legault: 1:52

because she was my best friend and we were about three years apart in age. Our family went Earla, Bruce, Leigh-Ann, Allen. And Leigh-Ann was just a really good friend to me. We, of course, as kids do, we used to fight as cat and dog, really. And thank goodness She was quietly witty. I would say She was taller than me, thinner than me. She was, she was my cheerleader. We were a really good team We just. Basically said, we're never gonna fight again. And we never did. We were past that.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 2:45

Yeah.

Earla Legault: 2:45

And we didn't say, I love you very much together. I don't remember that. But she used to always say, you're not gonna move away from me, And good for her. It was her epiphany that took her to Spain, took her to a different part of life, but. We really enjoyed each other's

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 3:10

Yeah, and it's not like she just moved to the neighboring town. She literally moved across the world.

Earla Legault: 3:15

That's right. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. Did

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 3:17

you grow up in Vancouver?

Earla Legault: 3:19

No, we were from Saskatchewan. So it's a mid Canadian prairie province.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 3:24

Mm-hmm.

Earla Legault: 3:24

We lived there. I went to college in the next province over, and Leigh-Ann got married when she was quite young. She was 20. I got married. I was Her and her husband and daughter came to visit us, fell in love with British Columbia, and within six months they had moved here. I would say

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 3:47

And if I heard you right, with the four siblings, it was you as the oldest. And then a brother, and then her, and then another.

Earla Legault: 3:54

That's right, yeah.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 3:55

Okay. What was the age difference?

Earla Legault: 3:57

Well, we're the four of us were born in five years, so pretty close in age. After a while. It was like we were all almost the same age because Nobody's the youngest. It's just we're all the same. Leigh-Ann was about three years younger than me, but she always looked older and she acted

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 4:21

Oh, would she have agreed with that statement? Oh, she would definitely agree. Yes. Yes. Yeah.

Earla Legault: 4:26

Yeah.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 4:26

It's interesting about that is you're not the first sibling. On the show or in my work to say that the oldest child is perceived to be younger. That happened with me and my brother.

Earla Legault: 4:38

Oh, is that right?

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 4:39

As well. Like people, unless you grew up with us people. Mm-hmm. Often thought that I was the older sibling, so, so

Earla Legault: 4:45

So Tony was the older sibling,

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 4:48

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But a lot of times people thought the other way around, so.

Earla Legault: 4:52

Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Same here. Same here.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 4:53

And I feel like I need to look into the literature to see what that's about.

Earla Legault: 4:58

Oh, for sure.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 4:59

So twofold. And for our guests that don't know, you have. Quite an active Instagram following as well. And you have this beautiful book that you wrote with Monica.

Earla Legault: 5:09

Yeah.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 5:09

So we're gonna start with your story, but then we can talk about your book as well. What are you comfortable sharing about losing your

Earla Legault: 5:18

I'm comfortable with everything, Angela. I might cry a bit, yeah. But it's only because I probably haven't told that part of the story very Leigh-Ann, she was living in Spain, having a really wonderful life. Like I said, we, we still kept in contact. She'd come to Canada every She's a real, very sporty girl, so that would be the difference between her and I. And her playmate at Paddle, which is like pickleball, she I had no idea. Within 24 hours, she and her fiance came to Canada to live with us, and she very soon after, got a terminal diagnosis for So she said, forget that. So we really had almost three months together of her being sick and just trying to manage the pain. And the throwing

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 6:49

I think, if I remember correctly, in the book, you had said that you asked her what metastatic meant, or that was like a new word

Earla Legault: 6:58

for you. Yeah, like I, I really didn't know much about terminal cancer. I'm not up in the body. Yeah. I'm not health wise, and I didn't do the research

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 7:15

Yeah.

Earla Legault: 7:15

I also ran into a friend of mine, Fatou, who was a pharmacist. We had mutual friends. That was another wonderful thing about our relationship. Mm-hmm. Fatou said, when I told her about the pancreatic Yeah.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 7:38

Mm-hmm.

Earla Legault: 7:39

I'm glad you read the book, Angela, because there's, there's almost things that I forgot that I put in there. I really did try to be as

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 7:59

So you were her caregiver as well as this role of sister?

Earla Legault: 8:04

Mm-hmm. That's right. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Within a week, her daughter, who was a newly graduated RN nurse, came and lived with us. Her and Steve, her But yeah, I was definitely. We just said, well, it was Steve, Sarah and I plus my husband. He ran the household because he comes from a family You wanna give? 2000%, but you also have to think of yourself, and I feel like I did a pretty good job of balancing things until after

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 9:03

My dissertation was on cancer caregiving and distress in cancer caregivers. It's definitely hard, and I just was interviewed with Dr. Christina Zampitella, who coined the term surviving siblings.

Earla Legault: 9:16

I know her. Yeah.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 9:18

Yeah. She coined the surviving siblings

Earla Legault: 9:19

back. I mean, I know of her work. Yes, definitely.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 9:22

The only paper that was really helpful to me when my brother died and she and I were actually, the podcast was on many things. 'cause But in our field there is, I hate to use the word diagnosis, but mm-hmm. Because in the US we often need that to get an insurance Like it's pretty distressing and hard to do. And then if you add on the sibling relationship, how complicated that must have been for

Earla Legault: 10:14

Like I said, it was the best of times and it was worst of times.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 10:16

Yeah,

Earla Legault: 10:17

I remember actually, I'm a closet writer. I would guess I would say that this book not so

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 10:22

closeted anymore.

Earla Legault: 10:23

No, not anymore. But I honestly, I didn't really realize how much writing meant to me, because I think what I have to do is write it out

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 10:34

Mm-hmm.

Earla Legault: 10:35

So I remember having a piece of paper in my pocket that I wrote, caregiving 1 0 1. Because nobody tells you that you either need to bring change or you need to have a credit card to, to pay for the parking, right? Just little And I really honestly did call it the learning times because I hadn't learned. And I feel like now that I look back on my life, I was a So in that part, I feel like I found the joy in it too, because we were together, like when she came off the plane mid-October, 12 years ago, So now I see the difference between being a caregiver and being a sister. She wanted to be at home and on our house was her home when she was in We just felt like even her basic care wasn't being looked after. Mm-hmm. Because we didn't know any better. And we did have help from the So she never got to go to hospice.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 12:30

So to clarify that mm-hmm. There might be a difference in Canadian care versus Yes. US care.

Earla Legault: 12:36

Yes.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 12:36

Hospice here can happen either in a facility or at home. Is that an

Earla Legault: 12:41

yeah.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 12:41

Option?

Earla Legault: 12:42

Yes. It's

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 12:42

because she was choosing to go to a facility, but fortunately her wishes to die at home were met.

Earla Legault: 12:48

yes. Oh, for sure. Yeah. Yeah.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 12:49

Okay.

Earla Legault: 12:49

Yeah, we were quite open about stuff like that. We said, Leigh-Ann, yes. Be here as long as you can, as long as we can handle it. And by Yeah,

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 13:07

I think, and I don't remember exact words in the book and I don't wanna flip through that. That's to find, that's okay. Yeah. But I think you described this time period as, I don't know if blessing's the right word, but

Earla Legault: 13:18

You mean while we were caregiving for her?

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 13:20

Yeah, having her for those three months, I think you talked about it was kind of a gift. To have her

Earla Legault: 13:26

in the home. Oh, for sure. Oh, for sure.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 13:28

Yeah.

Earla Legault: 13:28

We had an experience, her and I, probably 15 years before that when our mom had a heart attack. So we all came within 12 hours. We were with Mm-hmm. And we absolutely loved it, even though our mom was going through getting a pacemaker. We didn't know what her outcome was going to After a while, we made her life totally comfortable. She. She said, I like classical music now. So that was on all the time. We made it as I had my husband, we had mutual friends that I could talk to. I had my journal where I used to write, so that was a really good thing. Yeah.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 14:32

Did you have a chance to tell her goodbye?

Earla Legault: 14:34

No, and you know, I was thinking about that because some people are just so distraught they couldn't say goodbye. We were kind of, I'm not gonna

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 14:49

Mm-hmm.

Earla Legault: 14:49

By the time she got into the door, it was 22 minutes. We had long goodbyes.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 14:54

Yeah.

Earla Legault: 14:54

So I think I even call it in the book, those three months, it was like a long goodbye. So I just didn't feel like I needed to say that because

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 15:02

mm-hmm.

Earla Legault: 15:03

I think we had the talk about two weeks before she died with her daughter and we said Leigh-Ann said she'll come back to us in our hearts. Mm-hmm. When we hold our hands there and it birds. So honestly, I just didn't, I didn't feel the need to say goodbye. Maybe it was where my mind

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 15:29

sure.

Earla Legault: 15:30

I don't know if I said this in the book, but the two nights before she died, we slept toge. She actually died in this room on the hide-a-bed that used to be hers. But when she moved to Spain, I inherited a bunch of stuff, pre-inherited, That was an amazing experience. That was, mm-hmm. The gift really

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 15:58

Truly connected.

Earla Legault: 15:59

Yes. Yeah.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 15:59

Mm-hmm.

Earla Legault: 16:00

Yeah, so that's where I didn't feel the need to have to say that goodbye.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 16:06

Something that struck me in the book, because. As you, and most of our listeners probably know at this point is that my brother And you have a section that you call Sudden Death, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah. And so you described losing her as a sudden death, and I

Earla Legault: 16:26

Yeah.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 16:26

And it makes sense because this was still unexpected. Can you say more?

Earla Legault: 16:31

Yes, I can, because again, this is the part where I totally believe in grief education. That's why I wanna be open. Mm-hmm. Is that, I think it's, her name is Theresa Rando. Yeah. I think she wrote a book called Sudden Death or something like that. And that's where I read that said if there's a death, like a terminal That's where I feel like. It was sudden. Honestly, we didn't know how long she was gonna live. It was kind of one of those funny things. We Mm-hmm. But none of us could remember. None of us could remember if he said weeks or months. So we just lived as if. There wasn't gonna be that. Also, when she's walking around and be talking a little bit too nice before, you don't think it'd be sudden. Right. And her life is going to be

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 17:49

I think I've talked about this before, and either on this podcast or. Elsewhere, and I am currently teaching a master's level grief And so sometimes I talk about these things and think I've talked about them on here, but I've talked about this before. And that So. It makes perfect sense in thanatology world. I don't know that it entirely falls into sudden Death, but it purely on a

Earla Legault: 18:31

Yeah.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 18:32

Yeah. And that you would have the rest of your lives together. That's right.

Earla Legault: 18:34

Right. Yeah. This is where people say, well, how come sibling grief isn't talked about? Well, I really truly believe because they are our That's why people do not talk about it. And it wasn't until my niece died and it's just, what was I expecting? That we were all gonna be all on Yeah. And Steve might've gotten tired of living in Spain. They would've definitely moved to Harrison Hot Springs 'cause they like visiting So it would've been like the perfect life. You don't anticipate. Mm-hmm. You don't see it coming.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 19:37

Yeah, for sure. Can we talk about family dynamics?

Earla Legault: 19:40

Sure. Can.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 19:42

What, if anything changed? You said she was the glue, so I'm curious what changed in the family?

Earla Legault: 19:48

Yeah. I would say because she was such a calm person, I would say that she was the glue also in our family.'cause there's two boys and two girls, so Leigh-Ann and I were tight, my two brothers are tight. When she died, I didn't have that anymore. And, that's just how it is. Mm-hmm. I moved now because I could see the relationship that my brothers have. Mm-hmm. And I can see my relationship with my sister through

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 20:19

I wonder if you feel left out or isolated in seeing that.

Earla Legault: 20:24

Yeah, I would say it was funny one time shortly after Leigh-Ann died and I, you know, I'm positive they reached out because they knew us and I'd And I just wrote back and said, what am I, chop liver? And they said, no, come on over. So I did, but I had to get over that feeling left out.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 20:47

Yeah. You had mentioned your mom a few times.

Earla Legault: 20:50

Yes. Yeah, my mom had dementia. Yeah. Mm-hmm. So she was, I hate, it sounds so harsh to say she was no help, but she couldn't help at all. And our dad had died like 30 years previous. Um, it's funny because I feel like I did get support from my dad. Like when Leigh-Ann was message. That's right. Mm-hmm. My dad was a stamp collector. Excuse me. We were, see, we're used to seeing lots of mail come in and going, so when Leigh-Ann was sick, I Mm-hmm. There, like spiritually and emotionally.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 21:41

Right.

Earla Legault: 21:41

Whereas my mom, she just couldn't do it. There was other dynamics in the family that it just, you know, and she was a retired nurse. She And it's probably where I went elsewhere. Mm-hmm. I went looking for somebody who was a lot like my sister, I think.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 22:05

And I assume that you're referencing Monica, that you wrote the book with

Earla Legault: 22:09

Monica? Yeah. And before Monica, it was a woman that, I like to talk about this too, because it was such a good thing, but there's a Mm-hmm. And a, a volunteer would phone me every week. I lived for that one hour a week of talking with her. Mm-hmm. Because she was a sibling.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 22:29

I loved when you talked about that in the book, in the work that I do as a psychologist and used to be in a cancer center, we And we would talk about cancer patients being paired with cancer patients. But when you talked about that in the book and that you So I'm proud of you.

Earla Legault: 23:08

You know, You know, at the time you don't know what you know or you don't know what you need. They had suggested, do you want somebody who's I didn't know how I was gonna live through this. Mm-hmm. So I wanted to talk to somebody who lived through it. And that was a gift. That was an absolute gift. Before Leigh-Ann died and after Leigh-Ann died.

Music playing: 23:35

Mm-hmm.

Earla Legault: 23:36

I'll always be very, very thankful and grateful for that. I don't know why, but they quit doing it during COVID, you know, if people needed And honestly, she said that she got just as much out of talking to me as I did to her because she got to talk about her sister Suzanne. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. We need a peer. I didn't even know what a peer was until one time Monica and I were talking. I go, Hey, we're peers. This is how you're

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 24:13

Mm-hmm.

Earla Legault: 24:14

There again, another gift, but I guess it's because like I said, I'm open and I took an educated risk and reached out to somebody who was on'cause it's quite amazing. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 24:34

For sure before we get to her and the book. I'm curious, 'cause you mentioned that your husband also had lost two siblings. What

Earla Legault: 24:45

you

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 24:45

know, and he was probably grieving Leigh-Ann as well.

Earla Legault: 24:48

Yes, he was definitely. Yeah, he definitely was. My husband is a, described him as a Buddhist monk, posing as a retired forestry officer because to me he's like this So he's the grocery shopper and he came home with a carton of toilet paper and a carton at Kleenex 'cause he said, we're gonna need this. And He comes from a very loving French Canadian family. Family's important to him, and that's why we get along together for 40 some years. But Mm-hmm. He goes, no, Earla, we need this

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 25:53

call.

Earla Legault: 25:54

Quiet place. We don't need to disheveled our whole lives. And it was, and so that kind of wiseness, whereas Earla would've said, oh yeah, let's, Yeah.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 26:11

Yeah. Um, sounds like he's a grounding force for you

Earla Legault: 26:14

for sure. Yes. Just like my sister was, she was practical, let's put it that way. Whereas Earl has got a hundred ideas, Leigh-Ann has one.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 26:22

Which you've done a bunch of things that it seems like losing her. Created some sort of meaning and purpose in your life. Mm-hmm.

Earla Legault: 26:31

Yeah.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 26:31

I hesitate to use those words, but I think because I don't want that to be misheard as happy that you lost your sister. Yeah. Because

Earla Legault: 26:45

what worked. But, well, right from the start, I would say tuning into my own nature. So my own nature was writing, drawing, talking to people. Being in nature. So I think that was the things that really helped me. And what's I always had the goal of I wanted to be healthy, happy, and whole, and I knew I would attain health and wholeness just 'cause of the way I Mm-hmm. Did I answer your question?

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 27:34

Yeah, you did. And it struck, it reminded me very much of a dual process model of grief where we're like balancing loss and life That's right. Right. It sounds to me like. You've found that balance. And of course, sometimes it's harder Yeah. Than others.

Earla Legault: 27:57

Yeah. It is a balance. It's a balance of, I called it the learning times. So you learn mm-hmm what you can, but then also you just have to And that's where I am a joyful person. I love children, I love nature, I love art. So those are the things that I went back to. But I'm 12 I think it was three years after Leigh-Ann died that I met Monica. Mm-hmm. And then shortly after her, I put this video together, put her So that's what worked. I think that's what worked for me was learning from other people that had gone through it. Seeing the empathy. What

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 29:15

Yeah, I wanna thank you for that perspective. 'cause as you know, I haven't been terribly active on this platform or on Instagram in Because you knew where I was and we have communicated over the years. Some of the most meaningful messages have come from you, but also I wanna say, I appreciate when you'll respond with things like

Earla Legault: 29:54

Yeah. And it's my nature. I, it is my nature. I think I was cognizant of Tony's timeframe and so five years, it really messes with your And also. You're a counselor for a living, you're into grief education and that takes its toll too. Mm-hmm. And I've seen a few people that Supportive of people who are going through sibling loss. No, not that her and I have talked about this, but I recognize in myself how you can That's why I was so excited to, to meet you and talk to you, because there's not a lot of places that are dedicated. To true supportive To so that people don't feel so alone.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 31:15

That is largely it, and the feedback has been right. Like, hear your story. Someone's gonna relate to your story. And actually one of Your story is similar. I'm gonna connect you to, if I can, right. She's from a couple seasons. But, so thank you for that. And it sounds like the book is also, you're doing that too, right? Yeah. So what would you like to say about meeting Monica and from there.

Earla Legault: 31:41

Okay. We corresponded first through Facebook, and then we both don't really like Facebook, so we went to text and then I called her one day That was in 2017. We have not hung up. It was just amazing because her sisters had similar lives, even though Monica's Darcy was older, but How did you make it? I had so many questions and she was into answering them and asking her own questions. We still get along really well Mm-hmm. But we are sister like and um mm-hmm. Well, if you have a good friend because you didn't have a sister when you were growing up, but

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 32:42

Yes.

Earla Legault: 32:43

Are I feel fortunate that I have one that will go shopping with me. I'll have one that will come and sit on the couch with me and hand me the And that's what Monica was. But also I had heard the term grief buddy and I thought,

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 33:00

I want one of those.

Earla Legault: 33:01

I saw how it can affect people when you meet the same kind of person who has the same loss. So that's what I wanted. I put it out to the So when the buddy, when you really need the buddy. And also I was open to it. I was open to it. So. So, yeah, we both, within a couple of The book is based on the questions that we had of each other. Mm-hmm. And when we were writing it, we said, let's, let's pose three questions

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 33:44

gonna interrupt you for one moment.

Earla Legault: 33:46

Sure, sure.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 33:46

Could you tell our listeners the name of the book?

Earla Legault: 33:48

Oh, the name of the book is Living With Sibling Grief. Imagining A Way Forward.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 33:53

Thank you. Yeah,

Earla Legault: 33:54

yeah, yeah. We went through a couple of revisions. We, we said one of the things, and again, it has stems from grief education is say their That was amazing to hear. But it's true. We do not see their names enough. Anyway, so yeah, so we just, we worked on the book off and on. Yeah. Always there. Yeah. Mm-hmm. I feel very lucky.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 34:41

Yeah. It sounds like a beautiful friendship and support, and I'm glad that you said sister, like,

Earla Legault: 34:47

yeah.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 34:48

And growing up I had a, she's still a close friend. We would say that we were like sisters and she had a sister, and I had another But as soon as Tony died, I was like, Nope. Have friends who are very close, but I like that sister like or brother like term

Earla Legault: 35:10

that's right.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 35:11

That's right. Close in a different way. So thank you for that word.

Earla Legault: 35:14

Yeah, you're welcome. My sister-in-law said Earla. Leigh-Ann would've been the one to support you through all this.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 35:19

Yeah.

Earla Legault: 35:20

You know,

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 35:20

ironically.

Earla Legault: 35:21

Yeah. Yeah. I know. It's so ironic.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 35:23

Do you feel like she's still supporting you?

Earla Legault: 35:25

Oh, for sure. Even this morning I thought I've got a cold, so I thought, oh, I hope I don't sneeze my weight through But I, I put my head to my heart and I just took a couple of minutes and just felt like she's still there. And it took nine days after going

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 35:58

It's a newer concept. Honestly, it was done as clause, I think it's 1998 or so, that term. You're right,

Earla Legault: 36:05

Yeah.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 36:06

grief itself isn't necessarily talked about, as you know, and these newer contemporary theories are so much more helpful than

Earla Legault: 36:13

Exactly.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 36:14

original ones. Yeah.

Earla Legault: 36:15

Yes. And the dual process that is. Mm-hmm. I remember one time I did a, 'cause I used to do Instagram lives a lot more, especially at night when most North America's I'm just so distraught. But she said, I wanna go to the show, but I feel like I can't go to the show. 'cause then I'll laugh. And I said,

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 36:49

Right.

Earla Legault: 36:49

To have a good laugh, you deserve it.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 36:51

Yeah, absolutely.

Earla Legault: 36:52

And that's where, again, that's grief education 1 0 1. You have every right to laugh again and find joy and not think about the 24 7 because you are, it's always going to be there. Yeah, I was

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 37:10

Zampitella. Yep. Yeah.

Earla Legault: 37:11

Her paper on sibling grief and nature and connecting with them, I believe it's through nature rituals that meant the world to me, and I read That's Leigh-Ann. We're together. Mm-hmm. Like, I don't know where she is, but we're together. So did that come from me reading Christina's To, to really support. Any kind of grief organization that supports children and especially teenagers, because if siblings are the people

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 38:08

Yeah,

Earla Legault: 38:09

there, the young people. Yeah.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 38:11

Yeah. There's some great organizations doing that. The Dougy Center.

Earla Legault: 38:14

Yes.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 38:14

I think they're in Portland, Oregon. Yes. And then there's also, there's a whole slew of them right here in Pittsburgh. We have Those children that grow up to be adults, we're starting to support them. And the broken pack because it's needed, right? Yes. Okay. Her sibling died before her.

Earla Legault: 39:01

Okay.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 39:01

Before her. And so she is, she talks about. That. And she works in the grief world as well. Yeah. But, so let's talk about the book a

Earla Legault: 39:12

Well, I'd like to share that. I'm happy to hear that you're gonna be having authors out, because I'm not saying it takes its toll when So. You're writing this book while life is happening, and but like things that maybe people might not notice when they pick up the book, that It took us six years about off and on. Mm-hmm. I'm trying to get away from apologizing about my artwork because I'm not a hundred percent And then one of the kids says, well, she's writing a book about sibling grief. So we, and because her, I think that's the other thing is that we

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 40:34

appreciated them.

Earla Legault: 40:35

I mean, like this one here from Alexa. Yeah. So this is a navigating family. Hey Alexa, can you help me find someone who gets all this and accepts me for who I am and where I'm at in Or talk to me about throwing them out. Like says Okay. Just stuff like that that probably that came from a conversation with Monica about my When people want academia, they can go somewhere else. But ours is, we say it's a lighthearted look at a heavy subject. And it also, like in the Sometimes, it's just the whole world's still doing good, but you're in this dark shadow. Yeah, so that's the other thing about the book. You

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 41:47

not need to apologize for your pictures by the way.

Earla Legault: 41:50

Thank you. Yeah, I've since taking it so funny, after the book, I started taking a drawing class. While I was making it, I took comic making So that was fun. So it's a different kind of book. It's different than I, I love the empty room. That is one of, that's like the seminal

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 42:13

on the podcast. Yeah.

Earla Legault: 42:14

Yes. And I really appreciated her. I actually interviewed her because I said, I just wanna talk to you because your book's so good. Yeah. So we did that together and yeah, so that's again, why I'm so excited about you interviewing other authors because like right now I Whether it's a book or a podcast, we have to get the word out. We have to help educate people about grief through any means that we can. And It's an easy way to get the book out. Mm-hmm. However, bookstores don't buy books on Amazon. We had a very fun book launch three weeks She says, well, what about the cover? I go, I don't care about the cover. I want us to have a dance and call it Darcy's dance. 'cause Darcy We are, we're, because we really did the push on. Every day we talk, we'd connect, and if I wasn't sitting at the desk, we'd be walking. 'cause So that's where we haven't really given it the all to get the book out there to promote it and market it. That's not our purview. I feel like She goes, I'm in my early days and can you give me some suggestions? And I said, it sounds like you're doing things well already because Mm-hmm. So yeah, I'll

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 44:39

put the link to your zine and all of these wonderful things and

Earla Legault: 44:42

um,

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 44:43

show notes as well.

Earla Legault: 44:44

Can you tell I used to work in a library? Yeah.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 44:47

Well I really appreciated all of the resources too that you listed. And thank you for listing the podcast as well. But I did like Exactly. Everyone, as much as you and I love books, not everybody likes to read. Exactly. So you have quite the slew of different

Earla Legault: 45:06

yeah, yeah. Because sometimes you just don't even know where to look or you don't even know the terms. Like how many of us use the word bereaved I can barely spell it. So

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 45:18

I'm weird. I'm like a grief nerd, so

Earla Legault: 45:21

I do

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 45:21

maybe.

Earla Legault: 45:21

Yeah. Well it's like in the library, if you're to look up a cookbook, you don't look up cookbook, you look up cookery. That's the key. Yeah. It's so important. And you doing your teaching a master's class in grief education.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 45:41

Thank you. That's because I'm really passionate that grief should be taught. To all counselors 'cause we don't get a lot of that And that's unfortunate. So still I'm on a mission to change that. Yeah.

Earla Legault: 45:59

Are you serious still? Uh, like wow. Okay.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 46:02

Those of us that have gone on to pursue further education, usually no. The people in my class that I've taught, certainly, no, I shouldn't say that as a whole, but yeah, quite a few people don't learn anything.

Earla Legault: 46:20

Yeah, I think we're doing a service to siblings because it's not, we aren't like, they call it the disenfranchised grief. Brenda Marshall Spoke to me, but nowadays, like even in our own compassionate friends, well in Canada, they don't support adult siblings.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 46:45

They do hear to some extent, yes. It depends on the chapter and it, yes, I didn't get involved because when I looked it looked like

Earla Legault: 46:57

support adults. Yeah. I got into them during COVID. I got on there online. They have a support group, and now I think, yeah, I talk, talk about in the book, I

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 47:14

Congratulations.

Earla Legault: 47:15

It was a national conference and they just recognized what I was doing and in the states, not in Canada because

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 47:22

mm-hmm.

Earla Legault: 47:22

We don't have that much, although we do have a monthly online peer support grief group that I co-host with Adam from Vancouver. And yeah, so We have a good core group there that really seems to get a lot out of it.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 47:38

Mm-hmm.

Earla Legault: 47:39

But yeah. Yeah. We need lots we can learn from globally. Yeah. So I really encourage people to find what fits for them in their nature. People

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 47:54

for sure. And I think that it's key to build community versus compete in this space. It's definitely, let's bring everybody,

Earla Legault: 48:01

yes.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 48:02

Together. Yes. Like I don't need to be the expert or the whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Earla Legault: 48:08

I really see us as collaborating. I include myself and those 12 authors. There is no competition there. We are all collaborating. Right? 'cause we all have a different viewpoint. Like Dawn's book, she's a psychologist, so she brings so much to the table, the empty room. Yeah. So that's why I would love to see like a resource hub where 10 to 12 books are there for people because it wasn't there for me and I I met her through a friend of mine that was dying. She's the one that said, you gotta write the book Earla that you wish you had. And they've

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 49:09

Normally I ask people what they think would be helpful to know about sibling loss. And you've written that in the book, and Is there anything else you wanna add on that topic?

Earla Legault: 49:21

What would I want people to know? I think it's all unique. Mm-hmm. And we're not all cookie cutter. It's a case by case basis.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 49:29

Mm-hmm.

Earla Legault: 49:29

You know, some of the things that people have said to me, they didn't realize they were hurtful, but they were. And that's where you have to be And that's why with sibling grief, like a lot of us aren't elderly, we still have lots of time to give that. We want to tell people that Or well, people go, oh, it was just a sister or brother that has been said to me too, you don't get mad. You just take that and learn from it. I You've been giving back all along in your podcast, but yeah. We're, we are in this space to give back where mm-hmm. Siblings in their early

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 50:28

Yes. Well, I do wanna say about that. Right? There's no timeline in grief and so it does wax and weigh in and over.

Earla Legault: 50:34

Yes.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 50:34

Time it does feel. Hard, and it doesn't actually get easier. I think you learn to live with the grief. So those people that might be listening that are past five years or past 20 years and are

Earla Legault: 50:51

oh, for sure. It's like the wave, like tomorrow's going to be better. Like we really know that tomorrow's gonna be better. And if it's not better and you found a counselor, you find your nature that will help you. Yeah, you'll, I will always miss my sister. I, I said I wish we didn't get,

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 51:11

yeah. And you mentioned earlier this aversion to healing, right? There's no healing from grief. And I know in my early podcast days I mentioned healing and that was before. I regret having said that, but there's no healing

Earla Legault: 51:31

I feel just really appreciative of being here because it has me thinking back and I appreciate that. I love being able to tell the stories, like the funny ones and even the sad ones. I can cry, but I can move along. I would. I think you're That's, you know what I mean? Yeah,

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 52:09

yeah. Absolutely. That's a great segue into my last question for you. Okay. Which is. What are some of your favorite memories of

Earla Legault: 52:18

Oh Lord, I have so many, 'cause I got 51 years, right. My favorite memories, she went back to school to become an administrator and she I've got so much stuff that I've kept over the years. Even Monica said, yeah, I'm starting to channel Leigh-Ann. I'm getting rid of. So So no wonder she used to say, you've got a million things in your head. How can you handle it? And now I could say, well, I just have one I don't really have one story 'cause I have 51 years of stories. She came home from the hospital. Beautiful baby. I thought she was mine. This is

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 53:22

Yeah.

Earla Legault: 53:23

Yeah.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 53:24

Well thank you for that. I'm actually gonna circle back and ask you one more question.

Earla Legault: 53:28

Sure, sure. Yeah.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 53:29

You've had a lot of secondary loss, including your niece, who I think you mentioned was one of your last connections to your

Earla Legault: 53:38

Yes, that's right. Yeah.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 53:39

I know that on the Instagram and another work that I've done, I've talked a lot about secondary loss. 'cause I don't think people What would you say about your secondary losses and your experiences around that?

Earla Legault: 53:52

Secondary loss is just as devastated as your main loss, but I think in a way, like for me, I learned from my sister dying. I learned how to be It was devastating because at the time her baby first died and then she died two months later. Mm-hmm. And that was sudden thing that happened We had no hope that she was getting better. We had hope that we would give her a good life and that a death there was so much good that came She did. It's six years now that she died and it's was a different type of death because she was my niece, but she was like one of my So secondary loss, it's, you don't want people to discount it. Oh, you, you've gone through that first loss, so this one's gonna be easier for They're not gonna live till they're 150. So in a way, with the first loss, you learn from that so that you can still find the joy and imagine a

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 55:47

And so even from losing those people, then you also lost this expectation, right? That you would have this full life with your sister or with your niece. Yes. Or all of those things. And those are losses. Yes.

Earla Legault: 56:04

Yes, exactly. Yeah. But then Angela, it's also like when you were talking about the dual process.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 56:09

Mm-hmm.

Earla Legault: 56:09

Yes, Sarah did die. However, we've done so many, her husband or slash widow, he has a huge musical two-day event every year in her name, so we get to say her name She's gone back to where she's from, and now we're doing another one that was in Sarah's name. We collected funds for that. There's just so many More to Sarah and our loss. We're still deer in the headlights. We still can't believe it. She was a lively person. But we are finding the joy. I got an email or text from one of her friends the other day to tell me a grief dream that she had about Sarah. Yeah. They bring comfort and you have a connection still. So yeah, you do go through that loss. If you're able to find what works for you and

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 57:26

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thank you for that. I like that. Second learning, I think you called it. Yeah.

Earla Legault: 57:32

Yeah.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 57:33

Well, thank you. It's been quite the pleasure to talk to you. I'm so glad I finally got to meet you. I don't know if this is in

Earla Legault: 57:42

Yes. This was lovely. Yeah. Well,

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 57:43

thank you so much.

Earla Legault: 57:45

Yeah, thank you Angela. And I know that we'll keep in contact and we'll share resources and yeah, I love the broken pack, so thank you for

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 57:53

You're welcome. Thank you so much for listening. Our theme song was written by Joe Mylward and Brian Dean, and was performed by Joe Information on that, our social media and on our guests can be found in the show notes wherever you get your podcasts. Please

Music playing: 58:25

you just never know. You just never know. Oh.