Music: 0:00

If tomorrow starts without. There's something you should know. Will that hold you close? Never let you go.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 0:11

Hello and welcome to the Broken Pack, a loss survivors a platform to share their stories and to be heard. Something that many sibling loss survivors state that they never have had. Sibling loss is misunderstood. The broken pack exists to change that and to support survivors. I'm your host, Dr. Angela Dean. In today's episode, I spoke with Valerie. She talked to me about losing her brother Andy, their close relationship, Take a listen.

Music: 0:49

Know, you just never know.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 0:55

All right, so welcome to the show. How would you like to introduce yourself to our listeners?

Valerie Lentine: 1:00

my name is Valerie and, I am in my late twenties. I'm a physical therapist and three and a half years ago, I lost my little brother.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 1:10

Thank you for sharing that. Before we dive into losing your brother, how would you like to

Valerie Lentine: 1:17

Andy was, a kind of a hard guy to describe. We were polar opposites in ways. he had this harder exterior. People assumed that he didn't want to get to know you, and that to everybody that knew him and took the time to get to know him once he opened up. He had the kindest heart and was truly willing to do anything for anybody that showed him kindness or that needed kindness. But he kept to himself because he knew who he was and he knew the kind of people I feel bad for the people that didn't get to know him because maybe they misjudged

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 2:00

Oh, how was the relationship?

Valerie Lentine: 2:02

Our relationship was fantastic. We had arguments and little fights obviously. but he was two years younger than me almost. Exactly. So we grew up doing everything together. both played sports. We both cheered each other on. He, what I hear from my parents, always looked up to me, I think So, he wanted me to be involved in everything. If he had something exciting, he would call for me and make sure There would be a few years where we weren't at the same school, but we got the opportunity to be in middle school and high school at the same time. So driving to school together and after school activities. and then once we got to college, I obviously went to But, we would still come back together and we're still very and then he chose to go to the same college as me.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 2:57

Oh wow.

Valerie Lentine: 2:58

so that was fun to have him there and show him the ropes, and see him have his own experience similarly to what I did. and we didn't talk on a regular basis. I don't think either of us text anybody on a daily basis. But when we got back together and we either like drove home from school together or hung out, it was just always back to no normal like it had been.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 3:22

Yeah. And what would you like to share about losing him?

Valerie Lentine: 3:26

Um, that's a big question.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 3:28

It is, yeah.

Valerie Lentine: 3:29

I think I've come to learn that everybody has obviously a And so, there are things with that somebody was going to pass and there are different things that you lose someone suddenly. We unfortunately had to lose Andy very suddenly, so there was no expectation. When we were with him in the hospital for a few days, he wasn't conscious So, and it all happened very suddenly and semi traumatically and it We were both getting ready to transition into adults outside of school. And so I felt like a chapter very abruptly closed and then a whole other book opened, where I was hoping to have a new chapter in our relationship. So that was difficult and I think there were a lot of nuances, specific to

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 4:24

Mm-hmm And so he died fairly

Valerie Lentine: 4:29

Mm-hmm.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 4:30

He was supposed to be living next door to you.

Valerie Lentine: 4:32

Yeah. So I was graduating from physical therapy school, and he in 2020 and so he had to drop out of school. He would've graduated a year prior to me. but the cancer was taken care of and he was able to return to so it worked out that we got to walk at the same graduation ceremony and then very shortly after that I was living in a duplex. And him and his girlfriend had moved into the other half of the duplex. And, that was really exciting just because we hadn't been that close in proximity But then I had to go back to the other side of Michigan do a clinical rotation. and so him and his girlfriend had probably lived there a week and a half. Then he had his accident and two, three days later we were So, that like week and a half that we were technically neighbors, I wish that I would've gotten to at least be there for that. We had talked about it and we were texting back and forth during that week opening up, we should go walk there when it opens, when I get back." And It was one of the first times where you realize stuff isn't always guaranteed that it's going to happen. Yeah, so we were planning to live next to one another, but we didn't actually ever

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 5:59

Oh, and so you were graduating with your doctorate and

Valerie Lentine: 6:04

Correct. Yeah.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 6:05

Yeah. How cool that you got to walk each other

Valerie Lentine: 6:07

was so cool. It was so cool. I was a little bit further up in the audience, and because all the were supposed to file out in order, but he jumped the line, so to speak. and we got to hug and congratulate one another, in the middle of the arena. And my parents both remember watching walk out If it had happened a month prior, like not being able to close out that experience that we had been waiting for. So I'm very grateful that we got to have at least that experience, even if we didn't get to have the ones after the fact that we were hoping for.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 6:44

Yeah. So you mentioned that he had cancer before, obviously that's unrelated to the accident.

Valerie Lentine: 6:50

Yes.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 6:51

I wonder how that impacted your relationship or thinking about his mortality or yours those

Valerie Lentine: 6:57

Yeah. Thankfully it was very early and it was a very low risk form of cancer, But it did, make me think, a little bit harder about. I could lose him. But truthfully, he lived life very free. and he wasn't scared of anything. He for sure thought he was invincible. So I feel that I worried all the time. it sucked eventually that it came to fruition. All of that fear that I had. but He, his freshman year of college, maybe his sophomore year got in a terrible car accident, that was his fault, because he was just carefree. and no one was hurt, thankfully. But that was the kind of stuff that, worried about on a regular basis and so his accident had nothing to do with being a daredevil or reckless behavior. He was just. skateboarding with a friend doing normal stuff that he did every day. So, it was interesting that after all the things that we

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 7:59

Mm-hmm.

Valerie Lentine: 7:59

it was just something pretty casual. But I do remember for a short time after he was diagnosed and before he had his okay, I worry sometimes, but this is something that could actually impact him. But I am glad that we didn't lose him to that. Like I said, different circumstances for people. and he at least got to live a few years so that he was able to finish out his degree. So yeah, he was an interesting person because that kind of thing did make impacted me as much as it would have if he wasn't such a carefree person.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 8:34

Understandable. mean, My own brother was the worst driver, and we just always assumed that

Valerie Lentine: 8:42

Right. Yeah. Right It's interesting how you live your life up until that point, And then something completely different happens.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 8:48

Yeah. Do you wanna say more about the accident?

Valerie Lentine: 8:51

He was long boarding, which is skateboarding essentially, the city that we lived in had lots of very dangerous for somebody on a skateboard hills, And, his morning and longboard without helmets and, much more reckless behavior. He was with one of his good friends that he had lived with And, according to his friend, it just happened so quickly and he must have just shifted his weight or hit a curb or a crack or something. But he fell backwards and hit his head. His friend had to call 9 1 1. My parents were two, two and a half hours away on the east side of the state. I had a day off from my clinical, I had done one day at my clinical rotation. I had the day off, I was at the gym. And, I got a frantic call from my mom, ' cause I hadn't answered my phone. I just remember her saying, "Andy hit his head, you have to get home now." point, but for whatever reason, my brain just decided, he has to be okay. We're gonna go see him. But , like, he has to be okay. he skateboards all the time. We unfortunately weren't able to get a lot of information from the The nurses couldn't tell us a lot from what I understand. So we drove for two hours, not really knowing what state he was in.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 10:15

really interesting given, we both work in that, I guess I never really thought about, yes, over 18, there's a limit the emergency contact.

Valerie Lentine: 10:28

I don't know all of the details, whether or not, he was an established at the hospital that they took him to, so I don't know if he had emergency contacts. And from my understanding, when we were driving, they did tell In my head I was like, okay, if they're doing a ct, there has to be something they There's still hope that something could be changed.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 10:53

Right.Um.

Valerie Lentine: 10:53

And then We flew at like a hundred miles an hour for the two hour drive. just like people to get out of our way. And so I have a lot of sympathy for people that speed, even though there are a lot of people out there that are speeding for no reason. But, I always try to hope that they have an emergency'cause that was us and we looked like crazy people down the highway.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 11:16

It's pretty ironic given you just described

Valerie Lentine: 11:21

yes, it is ironic.'cause I used to tell people, the person that's like going 90 and weaving in and out of lanes on the expressway, that was my brother. Even when I was in the car with him driving back to school, that was us.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 11:33

Yeah.

Valerie Lentine: 11:33

holding on for dear life to the handle side of the door. We got to the emergency room. They took us up, and his girlfriend and his friend who was with him were there. You could tell that his friend's shirt was covered in blood. They had been waiting in the waiting room the whole two hours. They really didn't know anything. His girlfriend, she's the sweetest thing, just looked so distraught and confused. I don't blame her for that. So we had been sitting there for a while and the emergency neurosurgeon And so he took my parents and myself into a room. And, at this point in my schooling, we had gone through our neuro semester. We had talked about brain injuries. We had talked about spinal cord injuries. And so I wasn't fully fluent in the language, but I was able to recognize, his face that it wasn't good, but it was a skateboarding accident. So like I knew he hit his head, and he asked us, do you want me to tell you And were like, yeah, sure. Then he proceeds to list this laundry list of pneumothorax and He fell off his skateboard. How did he puncture his lung? How did he injure both vertebral arteries? His brain had a significant amount of swelling. He had fractures on the back of his head. He had facial fractures. And I just didn't understand. then he.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 13:03

in that moment?

Valerie Lentine: 13:04

I didn't. He just kept going. And then the last thing that he said was, that he didn't currently And I was like, what? What do you mean? Like, how is that even possible? I knew enough that I knew that wasn't good. My mom is a nurse, but I don't think she has that extensive of a background, So my dad, obviously it sounded bad, but he didn't know how bad it was. My mom knew it was bad. I knew it was bad, but they were still able to keep him alive, so to speak. And so he was on life support in the neuro ICU. and there are a lot of details in there that I don't necessarily. remember it was a blur, but we did spend about two days with him in the ICU. He was unconscious and on a ventilator, and we all just sat and cried. I remember walking into the room and they obviously had not taken So he still had blood, all over his face and you could tell that, his head was already starting to swell and it just didn't look like him. I don't know that I've ever cried that much in my life. I think only word I can describe it is wailing. You could probably hear us from downstairs in the hospital. At first, they thought that they could do, a procedure to relieve the pressure was swelling too quickly and that they didn't think that it would do anything because his brainstem had already lost blood for a significant amount of time. The hospital that we were at had a hotel. So we stayed at the hotel that night. I don't remember us sleeping. Um, and then the next morning, as soon as we could go visit him, we did. At one point it must have been just a physiologic reflex, I saw his foot And that was like a moment of, gosh, is he waking up? But then they spent an hour pumping him with fluids and. alarms going off because his blood pressure was tanking. And, ultimately at the end of that day, so he had his accident on a Tuesday on the end, at the end of Wednesday, they had done two rounds of brain death testing.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 15:11

which is

Valerie Lentine: 15:11

um,

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 15:12

for the faint of heart

Valerie Lentine: 15:13

no, um, That was really tough. We were at a teaching hospital and I don't feel that the doctors had, the appropriate We had his girlfriend and his friend leave the room, but I was there for the one. And, watching them do checking for pain reflex and, all of that is. that was tough. and then unfortunately, my mom was the one that had to make a lot of the decisions by herself because my dad didn't have the knowledge to make those decisions. but once they do that fine round of brain death testing, then So they, they turned off the ventilator and, the nurse was kind enough that we didn't have to go through hearing all of his vitals go. and the machine beeping and they shut the lights off for us. and then the nurse let us know when officially was no longer And I think. And all of that being really traumatic, the hardest part was, It's a little bit graphic, so I apologize, but, I kissed him on the and then the nurse said she would take care of him, but we just had to leave. and then we left the hospital and we were like, what do we do?

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 16:28

Yeah.

Valerie Lentine: 16:29

And we hadn't eaten, so it was so bizarre. There was a McDonald's by my apartment, and we went through the McDonald's And then we went back to my apartment and we slept. And then obviously for anybody that knows after losing someone like that first two weeks of, having to make decisions just started immediately

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 16:49

Yeah

Valerie Lentine: 16:49

that next morning, calling family members. I don't know that any of our family members knew the extent of his accident. And so I think it was a really big shock when, they had heard that he there, and hearing the doctor tell me all of his injuries, I didn't, Honestly, to this day, I, I don't know how he could have fallen to have sustained all of those injuries. I think it happened so quickly and traumatic accidents but it's such a, a whirlwind just. feeling like you're in another universe

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 17:26

Right.

Valerie Lentine: 17:26

While it happens. I very distinctly remember it, but then it also feels like it didn't happen the same time, which is an interesting thought process

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 17:35

For sure. It's, the shocking, like I'm somehow in this dream in which your brain is So when you think back on it, it's really hard feel like it's real.

Valerie Lentine: 17:47

right. And There are gaps two days. really didn't do much. We just sat and prayed and stared at him for him to wake up.'cause I've told people this before, just see so many movies and TV shows, where the person ends up waking up and so then your brain tells you We just have to wait, If we wait long enough. But what they don't show you is in that circumstance, he couldn't. With the extent of his injuries, like they weren't gonna let us stay in the hospital for a week and see if he recovered, unfortunately. and I don't know if we could have tried to stay longer to push off the brain death parents with something that there's not really anything that you can do about it, there's no hoping that it's gonna get better.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 18:37

For sure. it strikes me that the brain stem not functioning, and then you're sustaining support, feels like that was probably hard to put together,

Valerie Lentine: 18:50

Yeah, I don't know that I fully processed it at the time. But when somebody gets put on life support, you do And I feel like our hope was, maybe if his brainstem is able to perfuse, I wasn't the odds were that if you are lacking those vital reflexes that show you that

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 19:18

mm-hmm.

Valerie Lentine: 19:19

whether they could come back or not. I think I was just hoping and praying that could. It is interesting. I don't know that I've ever thought of it that way, wondering why they if he was missing those vital, life sustaining parts of his brain. But I am glad it in a way that, as traumatic as it was, that we Altogether it was my parents, his girlfriend, his friends, and then his girlfriend's mom had driven up to be with us. And so there were back and forth of, crying and begging and telling memories. so I think that ultimately. I wouldn't have wished that we didn't have those days with him.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 20:01

Right?

Valerie Lentine: 20:01

So whether or not the life support could have or would those days were helpful to a certain extent, which seems like a weird

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 20:11

Mm-hmm. It sounds like it was helpful in the process of remembering him and connecting

Valerie Lentine: 20:17

Yes. Yeah, Absolutely. And I don't talk to them as much, but for the first year or so, his girlfriend each other, which was helpful and I really didn't know either of them So, I think sharing that unfortunately traumatic experience together, bonded us in a way that allowed us to help each other grieve to respect.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 20:43

Did his girlfriend remain your neighbor?

Valerie Lentine: 20:45

She did not. She did go back the next day to collect her things, but I don't think There was even a time where I was with her and I had to go get something because I ended up moving back in after my clinical rotation. and by that point there were new neighbors living there. But she was in the car with me and I asked her if it was okay, I was like, you won't see the apartment. I just need to go run and grab something. And it was very difficult for her.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 21:13

Hmm.

Valerie Lentine: 21:13

Even without seeing the apartment, just being So she didn't end up going back, no.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 21:19

So you did a clinical rotation after graduation. I was

Valerie Lentine: 21:22

Yeah, yeah

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 21:23

that.

Valerie Lentine: 21:23

I I was affected by the whole COVID situation. I was a year and a half into my program when COVID hit, so they had So we did all of our clinical rotations a little bit late. I think the way they set up our program, before COVID, everyone but because of COVID, I did two nine week clinical rotations after graduation. so one of those nine weeks was at, the University of Michigan, which was also not super helpful because I was doing my hospital rotation

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 21:55

mm

Valerie Lentine: 21:56

right after he passed. so that was difficult in and of itself. And then I moved back. Into my apartment and did another nine week clinical, and then about

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 22:06

Gotcha.

Valerie Lentine: 22:07

Yeah.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 22:07

So it sounds like as so many of my guests and myself back to work is really difficult, and then you were in a hospital setting. Do you wanna share how you navigated that?

Valerie Lentine: 22:19

Um, It was really tough. Thankfully my school was gracious enough to give me two weeks. but if I was to ask for more than two weeks, I would've had to And at the time, making the decision was easy. I was like, I have made it this far. I'm so close to being done and I don't wanna be stuck in this grief also, for a long time. So at the time, my best decision was that I wanted to move forward. So I took the two weeks. and I remember for the hospital I had to park separately and then take a bus. And as soon as the bus got onto the hospital campus, I was shaking. and I still have a difficult time even in just like doctor's offices because the clinic that I work at is not very clinical. So, anytime I have to go to a doctor's appointment, I feel myself get anxious. I had a couple panic attacks, particularly because we had to wear PPE still and had to ask my clinical instructor like, Hey, can I not come to see this patient? Because the machines beeping were traumatic and, I asked her that if life supportive machine, that I asked if it was okay if I could not do that. I was very lucky to have a very kind and compassionate clinical instructor. So She really helped me, and was aware of my emotions and where I was at. And truthfully, I don't know that I would have passed either clinical that, were understanding of my situation because at the end of every clinical, your clinical instructor has to give you a independent score. Looking back, don't think I was half as independent as I should rotations

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 24:07

MM-hmm.

Valerie Lentine: 24:07

I mean, I wasn't half of myself at that point either.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 24:10

That's an interesting term, like half of yourself. Right. I wonder how that relates to your identity as a sibling then and

Valerie Lentine: 24:17

Uh, I don't, I even at this point, three and a half myself a lot of days, which kind of adds to that grief and I'm sure a It does feel like a completely new world. I left that world in which Andy existed and now we're in and I think that's a big part of what I've struggled with is that identity factor. He was my only sibling. And so when it's just my parents and myself, it doesn't feel like our family. and I know that I'm still a big sister And, that never goes away. but it is tough 'cause I don't have that companion anymore. I've loved in your post how you've talked about that person they were keeping specific memories that only you guys shared. Um, and that person is supposed to be the person, you know,

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 25:07

absolutely.

Valerie Lentine: 25:08

So I've noticed that it's hard for me to even remember the

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 25:16

That's a, valid concern and something that so this push, "Oh, I have to get back to my old self." Maybe not from ourselves, but from society, but we can't be that person which adds to this loss. Right. Andy wouldn't recognize the version of you that is you now.

Valerie Lentine: 25:35

No. And.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 25:36

had to adapt.

Valerie Lentine: 25:37

Like you said, that's difficult in that specific, so much wouldn't even necessarily recognize you as a person. and so then that makes you kind of lose even more of that person. you're already going through all of this loss and grief, but then to lose yourself and then also lose a piece of that relationship that you had with that person. Because I'm not the person that had a relationship with my brother. anymore. And you're right, people still see you as the same person on the outside. But if you've never lost someone, which is by no means anyone's

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 26:16

mm-hmm.

Valerie Lentine: 26:16

didn't understand the loss of someone close to you. You just don't have the ability to understand how And how if you haven't seen me in three years and you were around me, I would be somewhat similar, I would imagine, but not anywhere close to the person that I was.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 26:34

What do you miss about your old self?

Valerie Lentine: 26:36

It's a fabulous question. I think, I was just thinking about this the other day. I miss that I didn't use to be so negative and I try. and I think that my job forces me to be positive because I have a job where I have to have relationships with people that I do truly care about. I almost feel like the person that I am with my clients. Is more who I used to be. And then as soon as they leave, I take that facade off and I miss having the Definitely more angry in general. I didn't use to be this angry.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 27:12

You don't seem angry today,

Valerie Lentine: 27:13

I think my anger is triggered more easily than it was before things more easily, and things linger a little bit longer than they used to not a good thing of ignoring the grief a lot of the time because I have to be on

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 27:39

Mm-hmm.

Valerie Lentine: 27:39

And so That is difficult to navigate. how do I grieve? But then also not let it affect the person that I have to be at work. Because I do want people to feel comfortable with me. I want them to feel positive about their situation, and that I want to help them. But I have a hard time allowing the grief in and also being able to be that person. So in order to be that person and make money and do my job, kind of have to ignore the things I need for myself, which is grieving.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 28:07

Can we talk about that a little bit differently? And, and again, I'm not doing therapy with you,

Valerie Lentine: 28:11

That's okay.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 28:12

I think that is part of your grief process though. It's learning to live with this loss and adapt to it and So in society we tend to think of grief as this emotional response or this, But really, because grief is forever, it's a lot about how do I learn to live And sometimes it means like carrying it like in your purse where nobody can see it, and sometimes it's out here in front of you. And so

Valerie Lentine: 28:40

that's true.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 28:41

I do think that you are grieving. I think that you've learned to adapt that, like you can't go to

Valerie Lentine: 28:47

Right. And I have worked on that a lot. When, I spend an hour with every single person at least once a week. and so you obviously get to know each other during that time.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 28:56

Mm-hmm.

Valerie Lentine: 28:57

And the question of family is bound to come up during that time

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 29:01

Mm-hmm.

Valerie Lentine: 29:02

So when someone used to ask about my family, if I about him as if he still was here and ignore the fact that he passed. And it was easier for me at that time to just not even acknowledge it. but now I feel more comfortable stating the fact that he's not here. So if somebody asks me, do you have any siblings? I say, and I don't know if I'll probably change this as time goes on, but I had a younger brother and he passed three years ago. and then depending on how comfortable the person is with grief, a lot of because I am very young I don't think that is even a thought in their mind. I could have lost a sibling, let alone my only sibling. just 'cause people don't think about that on a regular basis. They're asking you a very innocent question. Um,

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 29:52

small talk,

Valerie Lentine: 29:53

exactly. And then I drop this huge bomb on them. But I feel more comfortable doing that now, and I can tell that they're It was really hard. thank you.'cause most of the time they say that they're sorry, I say thank you, and then we kind of move on with our session. But occasionally they'll have lost someone, which I think are the people that are typically more comfortable talking with you about it. and so then we get to, to share back and forth, about that. When I was working with, a therapist a little while back, she was like, at work obviously, but I need you to go home, save those emotions I'm still not good at doing that. So that's where I feel like I do push those emotions down. And because when I do talk about it at work, has to be very short and sweet.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 30:47

Mm-hmm.

Valerie Lentine: 30:47

because the session's not about me, it's about my client. I think I've jaded myself, so whenever I do talk about him, I don't have that have that every time I think of him, but more times than not, I'm not feeling It's as if I'm talking about a third person.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 31:08

Yeah, I wonder if you're able to stay connected to

Valerie Lentine: 31:14

Yeah. And I try to. Like I said, we are very different people, so I, I have tried to adopt and I do feel like I have, ' cause he never understood the anxiety that I had. Because he just didn't have it. He knew who he was and he didn't really care what other people thought. He didn't care what was going to happen, because he just trusted that so I've, I do feel like I've adopted that some because he would always Like, why do you care what that person thinks? I don't wanna see you feel bad about yourself. I don't wanna see you sad or anxious, just wanna see you live your life. and I've been trying to do that. It's difficult, but I think part of losing someone, you naturally get that, I don't that I don't care attitude is more of a, positive thing than a negative thing. I don't care because I know who I am and I trust that God is going to take care of things and that things are going to happen, how they need to happen. not that I don't care because I have no interest in what happens.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 32:24

That makes sense for sure. So he wanted you to live your life. I wonder how you hold onto that now. What would he say to you about living your life without him?

Valerie Lentine: 32:33

I feel that, he would definitely, like any of our loved hold back and wait for the specific time or the right time to do things. I think one of those, cliches so to speak, of, you know, Andy wouldn't want you to be sad that he's gone, is something that is used with a lot of, genuine intent. but I also, like he would also understand that I am sad.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 33:01

Right.

Valerie Lentine: 33:01

Like he, yes, of course he would want me to live my weight of his passing keep me from doing things that bring me joy. But he would also understand yeah, I'm not here anymore. Of course you'd be sad."

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 33:17

Right. I always think the same thing, right? Like If they felt we weren't sad, wouldn't they slightly be upset? I don't know Right?

Valerie Lentine: 33:23

Wouldn't they be offended?

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 33:23

That we're

Valerie Lentine: 33:23

they be offended?

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 33:24

Yeah,

Valerie Lentine: 33:25

oh, you're, I didn't mean that much to you, that you're not sad.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 33:27

yeah.

Valerie Lentine: 33:28

also I would imagine that if it were me that had as much as He was a carefree person and he lived his life. It would impact him the same way. and maybe even so to where he wasn't doing as much as he used to. Because the thing that we shared was that we're both very, emotionally And so, when you are grieving and see people around you that you love and of course Andy would want me to be happy, and he would want me to go travel and he'd be proud that I was going to work and doing the things that I needed to do. But I know that he would tell me like, if you need to be sad, be sad. Because again, who cares what other people think. if you need to be sad, don't let people tell you can't be sad. who really cares? Why are you putting so much emphasis in other people telling'cause however you need to feel, just feel it. And I, I could in the, the way that he used to tell me things, I could hear him saying, Who cares if somebody thinks that you shouldn't be sad? They don't know."

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 34:34

Yeah,

Valerie Lentine: 34:35

They don't know what you're feeling."

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 34:36

exactly. Yeah. That's great that you can hold onto that part of him in that way

Valerie Lentine: 34:41

Yeah. Yeah. he taught me a lot for sure, and I think I took more from him after he passed, unfortunately, than I did while he was still here. But I think that's just how life happens sometimes.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 34:53

I would agree with that. You mentioned because. And I can relate to this, not all of our listeners can, but being the only sibling.

Valerie Lentine: 34:59

Mm-hmm.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 35:00

You mentioned earlier seeing your parents what has that been like?

Valerie Lentine: 35:05

It's been tough. I I feel like the word empty describes how I feel when we're all together. I very much love my parents and I'm very lucky that all of us, came closer'cause I was very worried about that after he passed. My parents love each other, but you know, there's always that overwhelming feeling of grief that you can't control how you react to it. But because it was only ever four of us, it's very obvious We've been on a couple trips since he passed. It's difficult to go to the airport together, the three Obviously holidays are difficult. but when you have such a close knit family, which I'm forever grateful for, it And I'm, I'm sure that you can relate to that. No matter how many people you have in your family, that loss is huge and you're going to feel it every time you're together. Then I think not having another sibling to relate to is difficult because I'm the only one feeling the loss of Andy the way that I'm feeling the loss. and if I had maybe one or two other siblings, we might not have all had we would all be losing a sibling, versus, I don't know how my parents feel losing a child, and they don't know how I feel losing a sibling. And don't know how his girlfriend feels losing the love of her life, and she We're all grieving that same person, but in different ways. Um, and so being the only sibling and having that be such a huge part of my just weird now that I don't have that extra person that's a part of our family.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 36:55

Yeah. I've talked to other siblings who have lost a sibling, but have remaining siblings, and I think it's, we can't compare that.'cause we never knew what it was like to have

Valerie Lentine: 37:04

Right.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 37:05

sibling. And so you're still grieving the person

Valerie Lentine: 37:08

Of course.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 37:09

being able to talk about losing a sibling. It's, yeah. Again, our parents, we can't understand that either. So I think the relationships are hard to compare. and as you go through the rest of your life and not have him

Valerie Lentine: 37:23

right? And, eventually when it comes to making decisions about our parents and their health, I'm the only source of grandkids now. I am my parents' sole focus, and my kids won't have cousins or an aunt And that's why I say that loss is so. different because we all feel the same weight of loss depending on who we lost. but I didn't have to watch him suffer through an illness. I didn't lose, the person that I thought I would marry and and depending on where that sibling falls in your family, like each So if it was a family with three children and the middle child was gone, So like everything is different. and I think it's important to try to recognize that one grief is but I do feel like. as a whole, sibling grief is a little bit like down at the bottom of the totem pole far just because losing parents or losing children or losing significant others comes first in, in most people's minds, to no fault of their own.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 38:43

Yes. Which is exactly why we were talking, because why

Valerie Lentine: 38:47

Yeah,

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 38:47

thing. have your relationships with your parents changed?

Valerie Lentine: 38:50

A little bit. they, we're all grieving a little bit differently, which is hard. I think the basis of our relationship has remained the same. but I do sometimes feel more of a responsibility to make sure that they're but we might be a little bit closer, which is a good thing. and we definitely spend more time together. just the three of us. And that's odd too.'cause it was rare that I was just spending time with just my parents if I was with, Not anymore. so I just moved down to North Carolina, a couple months ago, but That's been tough for them too. It's interesting because definitely more attention was put on Andy And so my parents worried about is he doing well in his classes And is he spending too much time enjoying life and maybe not doing now all of that attention is put on me because I'm their only concern.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 39:55

Mm-hmm.

Valerie Lentine: 39:56

But I think as a whole, outside of us grieving differently, whole lot other than they're different people as well, They're not the

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 40:06

Yeah.

Valerie Lentine: 40:06

And so I'm glad that didn't change our but it's hard to not get to see that spark in them anymore.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 40:16

Yeah, I think that's a secondary and also ambiguous parents that are still living. Our parents are not going to be the same people, just like

Valerie Lentine: 40:28

Right.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 40:29

of loss there.

Valerie Lentine: 40:30

Yeah. Of course I've been with my parents and we've laughed, and we've had but you can just tell that light inside of them that you get when you you're finally excited to see what they do with their lives and then That loss, I can tell, has just drained them a lot, which as it should, but it's just hard to see people that you love so much also hurting. yeah, that's definitely a big part of the loss as well.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 41:02

Are there things that you wish other people

Valerie Lentine: 41:05

Oh yeah, absolutely. I even think people that have lost siblings that they weren't close that close relationship with their siblings, they're still grieving significantly. but people that haven't lost their siblings that weren't close, or maybe their siblings, I just think that it's something not a lot of people think and that, grief in general. I have so many things that I've learned in the last three I've realized even myself before Andy passed, I did I didn't know how to think about others that were grieving. But with sibling loss. There were many of times where it was just me and Andy in the And now that he's not here, I can't share those memories the same way. I can talk about them, but I can't say, oh, do you remember that one time? Or do you remember when we did this? Or we got in trouble for this? Or Remember when mom and dad used to do this? All of those things that are an essential part of how you grew up and who you are as a person, are not gone, but you don't have that person to talk to about them anymore. There are so many times where something comes up so specific to my boyfriend about it, but if he didn't experience it the same way. It's not his fault, but he doesn't understand. And so then you don't get that satisfaction of getting to be nostalgic

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 42:38

Right.

Valerie Lentine: 42:39

because that wasn't the person you shared that memory with. And so I think a lot of people also don't realize that sibling loss gets tucked I've never experienced this personally, thankfully, but I can imagine, or I've heard people talk about, you need to take care of your parents, and

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 43:01

Mm-hmm.

Valerie Lentine: 43:01

everybody else gets more attention. And if you don't understand what it's like to have that sibling relationship, understand how hard that grief is and that it's not any less than others. It's just different.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 43:16

Exactly. I've said that a million times that it is just different. I'm glad that you haven't heard that. Most of

Valerie Lentine: 43:23

yet, at least,

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 43:24

that you have not had that.

Valerie Lentine: 43:25

I think that people in general don't think before they speak types of things are said, 'cause it just takes away from what you're feeling. and you already feel as a sibling that's lost a sibling, you already question how valid your grief is because, oh, I didn't lose my son. I didn't lose my spouse like he was my brother. But even though deep down, that it's a huge loss, the way that people act make you already start to question a little bit like,

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 43:57

right. We're disenfranchising our own grief in that way.

Valerie Lentine: 44:00

yes.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 44:01

I wholeheartedly want to believe that people aren't I just think, like you said before, you didn't know much I think people just don't understand what to say and so they say something be, and I've no doubt in my past, said some of those terrible things to people,

Valerie Lentine: 44:23

sure I have too.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 44:24

well, I don't say them now,

Valerie Lentine: 44:26

Right? Yeah. And that's why I try my best to have a lot of grace

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 44:32

for people mm-hmm.

Valerie Lentine: 44:33

who have never experienced grief.' cause like I said earlier, I hope that you don't understand it it's and everybody is very genuine. I think there are some times where people want to know that they've said something. And so even though they are being genuine and they have thought they're going to say, everybody lives their lives and life goes on. And so they're trying to check the box of making sure that they checked in on you or they've said something to try to make you feel better. But the biggest thing that I try to tell people is way that you feel way that somebody you're talking to is going to be comforted. If you know that person well try to think about what would best comfort them. And just because what you said made you feel good, doesn't mean And you're probably gonna forget you said. I have probably forgotten what I said to people before Andy passed, but the person you're talking to, like that's their whole life now.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 45:31

Right.

Valerie Lentine: 45:32

and they're going to remember it.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 45:33

That's great

Valerie Lentine: 45:34

it.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 45:34

Yeah.

Valerie Lentine: 45:34

It's a hard thing to navigate between trying to have knowing what it feels like to be misunderstood and have people say but there have been things that people have said that in my head I go, I know that would've comforted them because I know

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 45:55

Yeah.

Valerie Lentine: 45:55

who they are and and how they respond to things. I don't think they took the time to think whether that would've comforted me.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 46:01

This is such good advice. Are there ways that you stay connected? The idea of continuing bonds is that our relationship can continue, and I don't know if you've found ways to do that with Andy.

Valerie Lentine: 46:12

I think that's something I'm still working on. I did in the midst of the trauma and grief we left Andy at the hospital, I had promised him that I would talk to him every day. I did for a while. but then as your grief changes, it gets harder and harder. I feel like I was in a very extended phase of shock. I think I sat in shock for probably a year. and After that started to wear off and grief change and life changed, but I did feel very close to him when I was still talking to him. I've gotten a couple tattoos that make me feel close to him. I have a fingerprint ring that I wear that makes me feel close to him.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 46:50

Is the tattoo on your finger also?

Valerie Lentine: 46:52

It is, yeah, so he, it's 22? It does, it's his handwriting, so it's hard to read. But he was 22 years old when he passed. It was 2022. his birthday is July 22nd

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 47:05

Oh,

Valerie Lentine: 47:06

and that was his favorite number up. and he liked making jokes and flipping off the camera in pictures. So

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 47:14

that's fun.

Valerie Lentine: 47:14

and his friend got matching middle finger, 22 tattoos. Um. Thank you. Yeah, it was fun. That was, we probably got that, he passed in May. I think we got it in October of that year. It was just something that again, made us feel close to him in a time that we like, obviously weren't feeling very close to him. but I think the best way that I feel close to him is just getting to talk about him. So talk about him for grief in general. The thing that I recommend to everybody is just ask about that person because as talk about that person, because it's hard, you talk about the person you've lost and I'm sure you know this as well, but if you can spend a couple minutes take a couple minutes of discomfort away from the person who's grieving, So just like getting to share about Andy, which I've tried to do a So starting a page where I just force myself to talk about him because it makes me feel a little bit better, and then I feel like he's not as lost.'Cause he was just this like extremely unique person. And not have him in this world anymore is hard to know that he's no longer Then I'm very grateful to have our whole childhood on film. So watching, family videos of us and looking back through pictures and make me remember him more and force me to think about him more, because the longer I go without thinking about him, then all of a sudden it hits me. Like I don't remember my brother that well anymore, and I've had a couple times where sends me into a spiral because it sucks to feel like, I don't even remember what it anymore.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 49:08

Thanks for putting voice to that.'cause I think a lot of us have felt that, and it's really hard to explain You're like, I don't remember what it's like to have here But because it's been so long, of doubt that, that sense

Valerie Lentine: 49:24

Yes. Yeah. You definitely doubt what you're feeling. like. Do I really remember because it's been three years since I've even physically as if I made him up because when, even though we have that ability to know that if I'm not directly with somebody, they're still around. So if I'm not with my parents, I know they're still here versus like babies But then your brain starts to play tricks on you that you haven't physically seen this person in years, but you talk about them. Are you actually making this up?

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 50:01

Mm-hmm.

Valerie Lentine: 50:02

At least, I don't know if anybody else has experienced Do I really remember what it's like know Andy? Did I really remember what his laugh, what his voice sounded like, the presence that we had when we were together, what it was like to have a conversation with him. It's hard to hold on to the memories of that, the further out you get

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 50:22

Yeah. Which is precisely why I start this podcast off with you telling me about him and not how he died. So

Valerie Lentine: 50:27

yes. Yeah. I, that's much appreciated. Oh my gosh. Thank you letting

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 50:32

Yeah,

Valerie Lentine: 50:32

me share him. This is such an honor and as soon as I found this podcast, I was just so going through the same thing get a chance to share about their loved ones. And so it's a really special, space that you've created for people.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 50:49

Well, thank you. Before we wrap up, what are some of your favorite memories of you and Andy?

Valerie Lentine: 50:54

I love that question. I've shared this on my TikTok page. There are two. Well, they kind of go hand in hand. I loved being in the car with him. He had a very interesting music taste He used to drive this hatchback Ford focus, I think it was like a 2012, that rode super low to the ground. And, he had the bass all the way up all the time. And so like when I would drive with him in the car, not only were we driving like a crazy person, but we were bouncing up and down to the bass of the music. And, so we were either about life, or just jamming out to some music. But I was in grad school, and we were both living in the If I, went out with friends. I would normally go out with my roommate and her boyfriend, but out or she was leaving early or she wasn't coming back to our apartment. And so, I would text Andy and say, Hey, are you free tonight? Would you be able to drive me home? Every single time, yeah, when do I need to come get you? And so I would text him at the end of the night. He would roll up and we would, he would most likely be listening to whatever hear him before I even walked out of whatever bar or restaurant that I was in. Then he would drive me home. He would make sure I got inside and text me when he got home. I found out after he passed, I was talking to his girlfriend about it, and she told me that if I had texted him, he would cancel all of his plans for the night. And he would wait at home for my texts to make sure that he could come get me.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 52:22

That's very sweet.

Valerie Lentine: 52:24

I know, and it was very sweet of him to come get But to hear her tell me that like he really enjoyed being the one that come And so I'm really happy that we were close enough that she was able to tell me that, 'cause it added, more of a special moment those times. It was quite a few times that, and I'm not a big partier or a big drinker or anything, but being a responsible person, not wanting to drive myself home. So I would always just see if he could take me. I also loved getting to see him be in a relationship, which I think, because Not very many people got to see how good of a boyfriend he was. He had always told me like, I don't care to be in a relationship. I'm, being on my own because I don't have to worry about anyone else. But he loved his girlfriend and they had such a genuine, sweet relationship. and I was so proud of him getting to be selfless and that kind, So, I loved, getting to see him play baseball and playing Wii together and all the memories, that we shared when we were kids. But I think that's one of the coolest things I got to witness was him growing into this person that met a girl that he was head over heels for. We went on a family trip to Florida and she's really fair skinned. In the pool that we had at the Airbnb, there was no shade. So he built a little structure so that she could sit in the pool and be in the shade so that she gets sunburnt. He's always been a sweet person, but I didn't know he had that side of him. And so I love the fact that I got to see her bring that side of him out. And, then I got to witness how good of a partner he was.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 54:08

Yeah, that's so loving. Says a lot about him.

Valerie Lentine: 54:11

Yeah, he was, again, you wouldn't necessarily stoic and he was tall and stocky and didn't really smile all that often. When he was just out and about, he was very serious. Even at family events, he would just sit off to himself, and if somebody conversation, but he was most like ly, he just like sitting, doing his own thing. but if you knew enough to go up to him and talk to him, that's all he and to know that okay, this is somebody that I'm gonna take care of now.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 54:46

Yeah. thank you.

Valerie Lentine: 54:47

Thank you.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 54:48

Alright. It was a pleasure to meet you and talk to you

Valerie Lentine: 54:51

It was a pleasure to meet you as well. And thank you again for letting me talk about Andy.

Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT: 54:55

For sure. Thank you so much for listening. Our theme song was written by Joe Mylward and Brian Dean, and If you would like more information on the broken pack, go to our Be sure to sign up for our newsletter, Wild Grief, to learn about opportunities and receive exclusive information and grieving tips for subscribers. Information on that, our social media and on our guests can be found in the Please like, follow, subscribe, and share. Thanks again.