Show Intro: 0:12

Hello and welcome to The Broken Pack, a podcast focused on giving sibling loss survivors a platform to share their stories and to be heard, something that many sibling loss survivors state that they never have had. Sibling loss is misunderstood. The Broken Pack exists to change that and to support survivors. I'm your host, Dr. Angela Dean.

Episode Intro: 0:38

Today I'm joined by Elizabeth Ostler a Brooklyn-based theater maker and academic who has lost two of her siblings her sister Lisa and her brother Rob, we talk about loving someone in addiction the grief that doesn't end and sister play a play that she wrote to hold their story and bring it on stage take a listen.

Dr. Angela Dean: 1:03

Welcome to the show.

Dr. Elizabeth Ostler: 1:04

Thank you.

Dr. Angela Dean: 1:05

You're welcome. How would you like to introduce yourself to our audience?

Dr. Elizabeth Ostler: 1:10

So my name is Elizabeth Ostler, and I am a theater maker and an academic. So I've been creating theater for over 30 years. I live in Brooklyn, New York. I think that's a good place to start.

Dr. Angela Dean: 1:26

Fantastic. I know that when I saw your email, and I was very excited about the theater connection. So yeah it's been a while since I worked in theater.

Dr. Elizabeth Ostler: 1:36

I was delighted to learn that you have a theater background as well.

Dr. Angela Dean: 1:40

Thank you and the theater and psychology are so connected so I think that it's a good natural fit especially when I was reading the topic of your dissertation so oh.

Dr. Elizabeth Ostler: 1:49

Yeah thank you.

Dr. Angela Dean: 1:49

For of course interested in that so how would you like to introduce Lisa to us?

Dr. Elizabeth Ostler: 1:56

Yeah, Lisa is my sister, Lisa Marie Ostler. And so I'm the oldest of four, and Lisa is number two. And Lisa was born on August 16, 1978. And we are about 18 months apart. So she's the one that made me a sister. And growing up, we were playmates. And as we got into tween, teenager, then we were more like frenemies. But we came back to each other in adulthood and became closer. So it's the dynamic of our relationship. Lisa herself was big-hearted and felt things deeply. She struggled with mental illness. She was diagnosed as borderline personality. And that made things hard at times. And she was really good at reading people, and she was charismatic. And I want to be very clear here that this all came from a genuine place. She could really meet you where you were at, and you'd be like, oh, she totally gets it. She's on board with this, but then would switch it. And then you're always like, wait, hold on, I thought we were here. And that would be disruptive at times. She also experienced a number of traumas growing up So that just exasperated the situation And so she started using drugs and alcohol to self-medicate, So through a good chunk of her adulthood, she was in and out of addiction.

Dr. Angela Dean: 3:41

I think that's a valid point that you make about people with borderline personality disorder, that it's oftentimes they can connect and read people and, it gets a really bad stigma, both in my profession, but also in the world where we have beliefs that it's manipulative or unintentionally. But it's really about connection and wanting to connect and attach with people. So I thank you for stating that. Because it's those flips to the all or nothing.

Dr. Elizabeth Ostler: 4:11

Yes.

Dr. Angela Dean: 4:11

Makes you feel like, what am I doing here? I thought we were good. Yeah.

Dr. Elizabeth Ostler: 4:17

Yeah, exactly. Because Lisa was, again, so, generous with her heart and her love, part of the thing that was frustrating to love her is that she would, is it because of that and the way that connection and it was real that the behavior was hard. To just witness and be part of and get into the tornado of it all would be really challenging.

Dr. Angela Dean: 4:45

Yeah. So it sounds like in a lot of ways your adult relationship had changed from that frenemy perspective. And then it was also challenging as an adult, it sounds like.

Dr. Elizabeth Ostler: 4:54

Yeah, it was. Yeah. I think, it was never just easy. There was not a simple ease. Number three. So Laura. So it goes me, Lisa, Laura, and then our brother, Robert. Laura and I were always very easy. We never really had to work very hard at it. I mean, we're sisters, so we would fight, but in that normal way. But with Lisa, there's always another element that sometimes required a little bit more work or focus or just, and honestly, sometimes just a break. The drama would be too much sometimes. Being the oldest, I really also took on a parentified type of role. And so I think that also added to our dynamic that would be challenging sometimes where I was like, things need to be in order. We need responsibility. We need this type of thing. And then her more like. No, let's see where it takes us and let's show up for people and throw everything out at the window because this one person needs this help right now. That was hard at times.

Dr. Angela Dean: 6:00

Did you ever feel like you were that one person for her that needed something?

Dr. Elizabeth Ostler: 6:04

No. And I think part of it is because I would never let myself be. That would not have been okay with me. I always had to have it together. I was like, no, I am steady. If anything, I sometimes felt like she wanted that from me, for me to drop everything and just be like, I'll be your ride or die. And I was like, no, responsibilities, not ride or die. And so I think, yeah. So I think maybe I would imagine on her end sometimes there was some disappointment from me.

Dr. Angela Dean: 6:38

Sounds like it. What are the ages of the sibling difference?

Dr. Elizabeth Ostler: 6:42

Yeah. So my parents did four kids in five years.

Dr. Angela Dean: 6:45

Oh, wow.

Dr. Elizabeth Ostler: 6:46

Yeah. So it was a lot of chaos. So, right. So the difference is that's going to require math. So I'm just going to give you our years that we were born.

Dr. Angela Dean: 6:55

Okay. That's totally fine.

Dr. Elizabeth Ostler: 6:57

Okay. So I was born in 77. Lisa was born in 78. Laura was born in 80 and then Robert in 82.

Dr. Angela Dean: 7:05

Okay. Yeah. Crazy times. So you were about a year apart?

Dr. Elizabeth Ostler: 7:10

We were about 18 months.

Dr. Angela Dean: 7:12

18 months. Okay.

Dr. Elizabeth Ostler: 7:13

Uh-huh. Exactly.

Dr. Angela Dean: 7:14

What are you comfortable sharing about losing her?

Dr. Elizabeth Ostler: 7:19

I think we'd want to start is, Her death was my first real significant loss. Lisa died at 37, and so I was 38. And we had lost a grandfather, right? That made sense. And so I was almost 40 before I had a death that rocked me, and hers did. I could talk about that she died, and I could talk about grief, but how she died was off the table for many years, until about a year or so ago. And her death fundamentally changed me. I am a different person for having lost her. One of the things, too, I was reflecting on this in anticipation of this call. She had been in and out of her addiction for over a decade. And one of the things when you love somebody who's in addiction is that there's almost like this, it's not quite the long goodbye. Because there's always hope that it won't end in a goodbye, that they'll get sober. But there's a constant grieving that's happening as you're watching somebody, self-destruct and blow their life in the ways in which she was. At times before she died, there was a piece of me that just wondered if she was to finally pass, would there be relief? In it because it was so painful to watch her life and there wasn't there wasn't relief actually in her death it was just, horrific and painful and not and I kept thinking I was I'd be ready and I wasn't.

Dr. Angela Dean: 9:14

It sounds like that anticipation right because you probably thought she was going to die so many times you.

Dr. Elizabeth Ostler: 9:21

Thought.

Dr. Angela Dean: 9:21

You knew what that would be like.

Dr. Elizabeth Ostler: 9:23

Yeah and she had suicidal ideation, pretty much from adolescence on, and there were a few attempts. And so there had been a few scares, but again, not until... It actually happens. I wasn't at all prepared.

Dr. Angela Dean: 9:47

To clarify, if I remember from reading what I read, she didn't die by suicide.

Dr. Elizabeth Ostler: 9:53

No, she did not.

Dr. Angela Dean: 9:54

Okay.

Dr. Elizabeth Ostler: 9:55

No, no, no, no, no. No, just in the ways of the many ways I thought she would die or that she had. We can talk about, I can now talk about how she died and we can.

Dr. Angela Dean: 10:06

Only whatever you're comfortable.

Dr. Elizabeth Ostler: 10:09

So when she died in 2016, she was arrested on March 30th for drug-related charges, and this wasn't the first time she'd been arrested. And in fact, the times that she had—because she was sometimes living in her car, so we didn't always know where she was. So those times when she was arrested, it was actually a bit of a relief, because we knew where she was. We knew that she was being fed, she had a place to sleep, that she, and hopefully, honestly, that she detoxed and maybe this would lead to a stretch of sobriety. And sometimes it did. And so this time when we found out that she was arrested, I live in New York, but my family lives in Salt Lake City, Utah. So this is happening in Salt Lake City. She's arrested and taken to Salt Lake City Jail, and she is there, and she's not okay. She's not feeling well. It's clear from the intake documents, she's not okay. A social worker meets with her and says, yeah, this one's not okay. And what it turned out that was happening in her body, and we didn't know at the time, is that she had an ulcer that had perforated. And so she had developed peritonitis, which is when you get an infection in your stomach lining, it is 100% treatable. But if not treatable, it is deadly. And so when she's arrested, admitted into the jail on March 30th and by, the morning of April 2nd, and during those two days, she is repeatedly asking for help and she's denied medical treatment. And she's asked at one point, are you coming down? And she says, yes. And they're like, well, you're going to just detox. detox and even though they continue and p and the other women the other detainees in the jail are saying hey this woman isn't detoxing like there's something really wrong here and they're ignored they're told shut up they're even threatened, and and then on the morning of April 2nd they find her dead in her cell, they are able to restart her heart and they send her to an ICU but she never gains consciousness and she dies at 1 a.m. on April 3rd.

Dr. Angela Dean: 12:31

It's really heavy and unfortunate in so many ways.

Dr. Elizabeth Ostler: 12:36

Yeah.

Dr. Angela Dean: 12:37

We don't often treat people that are incarcerated for one reason or the other or detained, right? She wasn't, Was she charged with anything?

Dr. Elizabeth Ostler: 12:49

No, because it didn't get that far. She'd just been arrested. And so she was being held. And so, in fact, a judge was going to send an order. I have to look back at the records. I believe he may have already signed an order that she was to be released. You know, it was just like a run-of-the-mill type situation. And so, and I think for me, you know, I just described to you what happened to her body, but really why Lisa died is because she was dehumanized.

Dr. Angela Dean: 13:21

Yeah.

Dr. Elizabeth Ostler: 13:22

And so I think for me, that is part of what is so painful about this and why I couldn't talk about it for so long. And I couldn't talk about it because I couldn't sit with it. Like, I wouldn't remember what she died from. Like, I keep asking my mom, like, wait, what is that term again? My system couldn't hold that she suffered in the way that she did in such a needless way. And to add to it, just to the situation, is that how we treat incarcerated individuals is something that I care about. And I cared about before this happened to Lisa. So, Bryan Stevenson wrote the book. Just Mercy. And it is all about his work working with incarcerated people. And so he is part of the Equal Justice Initiative, and they're doing all this wonderful work around this. I read this book, and it is then when I read that book that I come to understand, that incarcerated individuals are a vulnerable population. I didn't really understand that. I grew up very much in a way more about punishment and that like. Yeah, that that was just like what's happening over there. And then it sort of was really thinking about it. And so on April 2nd, the same day that Lisa is found dead in her jail cell, I am at my alma mater, Sarah Lawrence College, at a prison reform conference. And we're on break and I get the call from my mom. This is Lisa's was in a jail and they found her unconscious. They're sent to an ICU and we don't know what's going to happen. And it was a surreal experience for me to be just having listened to all these people about, and then here's my sister. And I didn't know what to do because at this point, right, she just said like in the ICU, but there was a part of me that kind of knew that this was going to be the end. But I couldn't actually hold that and like I couldn't comprehend that. And of course I'm hoping it's not.

Dr. Angela Dean: 15:37

Right?

Dr. Elizabeth Ostler: 15:38

So I stay at the conference and I'm like in and out mentally at the conference. There's one moment that is very clear to me when I'm there and they have three or four women who were formerly incarcerated and they had been working with a theater company on telling their stories. And so they're doing these short monologues about their experience in jail and who they are and all these things I just remember like being there and then I'd like go deep into myself because I felt like I could finally sit inside myself, we're sisters like we're connected on a soul level, and then like she's in a coma and maybe I can go deep into myself and I can, maybe I can find her there, maybe I can say something, that will help her grab onto life.

Dr. Angela Dean: 16:32

Did you feel supported in that moment by what you were hearing? I guess a better question would be, what was that experience like, having just learned all of this and in that moment having to hold on to, this could be her right now?

Dr. Elizabeth Ostler: 16:47

Yeah, exactly. And I was with two of my really good friends. And so that was already helping. But as a theater maker, and I'm sitting in a theater, and a theater I had done plays in and had worked in when I was a college student, it really was quite helpful. I felt like I was being held. It was really hard, yeah, because the things were comfortable and I knew them, that I think I could even do that because of the way in which I did feel this kind of external and even metaphysical support. Right.

Dr. Angela Dean: 17:29

Right. Which, having worked briefly in theater, but having been trained in theater, I totally get that. The theater space just feels yet another being in our lives that is supportive, so.

Dr. Elizabeth Ostler: 17:39

Yeah, exactly.

Dr. Angela Dean: 17:40

I'm glad that you have that.

Dr. Elizabeth Ostler: 17:41

And I believe, you know, the work of theater is, and theater can be a very sacred space, and so. Yeah, like tuning into that a little bit. For sure.

Dr. Angela Dean: 17:51

Were you able to get back to Utah?

Dr. Elizabeth Ostler: 17:54

Yeah, so the very next day, so I get the call. So that's April 2nd. She dies in the middle of the night. And so I am, you know, going back, calling back and forth with my mom all through, the day and the night. And then so the next morning, I'm on a flight to Salt Lake. So, I didn't see her. The rest of my family, some of my parents, Lisa has three kids, her kids, my sister, Laura, were all able to say goodbye. But I wasn't. My mom, at one point, did put the phone by Lisa for me. And I tried, and it just didn't feel real. It didn't feel connected. And so, I tried something. I was like, I can't do this. And so, yeah.

Dr. Angela Dean: 18:50

Well, it sounds like you were able to find her inside yourself in that connection.

Dr. Elizabeth Ostler: 18:54

In my own way.

Dr. Angela Dean: 18:56

Where are you now with that? And I want to recognize that I know that you've done a lot of work around incarcerated individuals, but also with your new project.

Dr. Elizabeth Ostler: 19:05

Yeah, it's been 10 years now. We just passed 10 years. And so I've written a play about this experience, and writing the play was part of, What allowed me to be able to talk to you about how she died. So when Lisa died, when I was in my grief, I knew that I was going to, use art as a way to process it. Because that's just a process.

Dr. Angela Dean: 19:35

Right.

Dr. Elizabeth Ostler: 19:36

And I suspected that it was going to be a play. Because I also am a visual artist, so it could have been a piece of, and it could have been multiple, right? But I knew it was going to be a play, but I just couldn't figure out for years what that was going to look like. And I knew it had to be the events that happened in the jail. And just the idea of directing a human playing my sister, I was just like, I can't in the jail? Like, I'm like, I can't, I can't do that. I can't. And so I had a friend of mine who is a playwright and a poet, and she had written a book of poetry about her brother's death. And I'd actually was teaching writing at the time and I was teaching that book of poetry to my students when Lisa died. My friend was going to come to campus and talk and I had to postpone that because I had to go to Lisa's funeral. So it was all of these things like coming together. She said something really profound to me and she said, there is art here, but it will take time. And so that kept being the thing I'd hold on to Okay, there is art here, but it's going to take time And it's okay that it's not coming And then a few years ago It, had this flash in my mind of a scene of Lisa in the jail. Lisa was a Bunraku puppet. So my primary training in theater is directing and puppetry. I'm clarifying that it's a Bunraku puppet, not like Jim Henson, love Jim Henson, but it's a human looking puppet. They're usually about two to three feet tall, takes three people to manipulate. And I see that and I said, and I see a little bit of the scene play out and I'm like oh I think I know how I can do this so I sit with that for even a couple more years, so my family filed a wrongful death case for Lisa's and so we worked very closely with an attorney Rocky Anderson and I'm meeting with Rocky and I'm like how can I get involved how can I help, this can't keep happening because Lisa wasn't an anomaly it is a systemic issue and in fact 23 other people died in jail the same year Lisa did in Utah.

Dr. Angela Dean: 21:56

And just in Utah? In 2016.

Dr. Elizabeth Ostler: 21:58

Exactly. In 2016. Just in Utah. Wow. Okay. Yeah. Actually, another sidebar around this is that there's been some investigative journalism around medical treatment for incarcerated individuals. And a report that came out in 2017, so the year after Lisa died, said that Utah County jails have the highest rate per capita of jail deaths than any other state in the country. So there's a real issue. And Rocky has been working very hard on this and has really dedicated part of his life to addressing this. So I was meeting with him. I'm like, how can I get involved? And he's doing all the lawyer stuff. And I'm like, and then I thought, oh, what I could do is tell the story. So then the flash came back of the play. And I said to him, I think I could write a play because that would be amazing if you could do that and he gave me everything from the case so all of the discovery items.

Dr. Angela Dean: 22:53

How hard was that for you to.

Dr. Elizabeth Ostler: 22:55

Look at it was, It was harrowing. It was awful. That was last January. And he gave me a hard drive. And the researcher in me was like, I am going to go through every document. I'm going to read every word. I'm going to look at every image. Nothing's getting past me. Thankfully, the sister and the playwright in me was like, oh, no, no, no, no. We don't need just the stuff we need. My parents were heavily involved in the case. And my mom's like, there are things you don't need to see. There are things I wish I didn't see. Because they have like video footage of her being hunched over and things like that. And she's like, you don't need to see that. And so I didn't. I really just stayed with testimonies. But the first time I really like was going through them, I got physically ill. I had to, like, shut my computer and walk away. I was so nauseous. I was like, I don't know that I can do this. And in fact, I was saying to myself, what the hell are you doing?

Dr. Angela Dean: 23:59

Right. Which makes total sense.

Dr. Elizabeth Ostler: 24:01

Right? The details of it all. It was too much for my system. Too much. And so a wiser, kinder part of me just said, you don't have to do this. You don't have to write this play. you don't have to do any of this and so I, was like well I'll just take a minute, so the rest of the day I didn't work on it and then the next morning as I was just waking up and this is common for me when I'm in creating something that I'll get lots of insights like just as I'm waking up, and just as I was waking up all the things that I had read the day before I saw in a scene, I was like oh that's what that looks like and I like got up pulled my computer started working on it, and the whole process I kept saying you don't have to finish this you don't have to do you can write this play and or not you can write this play and not show it to a single person it just was very helpful to me to be like this looks however it looks.

Dr. Angela Dean: 25:01

Yes I love that you gave yourself that compassion and that permission to approach it in whatever way worked or didn't.

Dr. Elizabeth Ostler: 25:08

Work for you yeah I had to it wouldn't have been sustainable you know and sharing this with you right now I'm thinking about I think part of what helped prepare me and helped me know that voice and to trust that part is all of the anniversaries, you've had 10 of them Yeah I'm curious too With you And how you handle, Your anniversary Is it Like the When I tried to like Be like I'm gonna make sure I have a ritual And I'm gonna make sure Cause that's how it was at first It was like These things And she will be remembered And we will, Made it harder. And now I'm like, it comes however it comes.

Dr. Angela Dean: 25:46

Yes. So my listeners and followers on Instagram know that the fifth year for me was really hard.

Dr. Elizabeth Ostler: 25:54

Yeah.

Dr. Angela Dean: 25:55

And so each anniversary has been different. Each year has been different. And I'm only half as far into this loss as you are. But ritual is important in keeping our grief contained. So I think the more that we have that ritual, that container for our grief, sometimes it's easier to manage. But again, you know, I don't know that we can plan for those anniversaries. I'm more curious because you've had 10 of them and it sounds like you had this period of time where you couldn't tolerate the grief.

Dr. Elizabeth Ostler: 26:27

Yeah.

Dr. Angela Dean: 26:28

So how did the anniversaries help you get through that to get back to your point of that?

Dr. Elizabeth Ostler: 26:33

I think it was more of how I approached the anniversaries. Because I actually love ritual, and I agree with you. I think ritual is really important. It's when I became rigid about the ritual, that didn't always serve me and didn't always serve my grief. Because the grief is moving and evolving, right? And particularly in those early days, I didn't, again, this was like my first grief of this magnitude that changed me in this way. And there's so many things I didn't know about grief that I was, I've been learning along the way. And so at the time I thought it was something I had to get through. I didn't know that it would eventually be how I understand it now for me is that it's a primary relationship that I have, it's not going anywhere it's how I'm in relationship with it is, what I understand now I didn't know that then I thought I just had to get through it.

Dr. Angela Dean: 27:43

Right because in our grief illiterate society we think you've got a year then you're good.

Dr. Elizabeth Ostler: 27:48

Move on right.

Dr. Angela Dean: 27:50

You will somehow forget.

Dr. Elizabeth Ostler: 27:52

Exactly and then like, check and then you get it right and you're like wait no this is this isn't that, this is this is harder this is rougher this is this isn't following a pattern, it was hard to find my footing in the world and I lost I lost so much the other thing I didn't know is that I was going to lose a part of myself there was a me before Lisa died that I didn't get a chance to say goodbye to, the part of yourself yeah and it's like and so I'm this new person I'm dealing with this thing and like what am I supposed to do here, that was really hard but then life is going on around you yes, You're like, wait a minute, time, you're just going to keep going? And job, you're just going to keep going? And friends, you're just going to keep going? Really? Then when I sit in my place, I'm like, what the hell? And when I can step out of it and be like, well, yeah, it does. Things keep moving. I can hold both now, but I get angry at the audacity of things moving forward.

Dr. Angela Dean: 29:10

Right, because your world stops.

Dr. Elizabeth Ostler: 29:12

Yes.

Dr. Angela Dean: 29:13

And it feels like everybody else's world should also stop.

Dr. Elizabeth Ostler: 29:17

Yeah. And I don't think, at least in United States culture, generally speaking, I think we do a really crappy job of grief and having ritual around grief.

Dr. Angela Dean: 29:31

Yes.

Dr. Elizabeth Ostler: 29:32

And so I kept thinking, I wish I had a black armband that I could wear that would just signal to people, I'm in grief and I'm not okay, so give me a lot of space and a lot of grace. And sometimes I'd want to wear it and sometimes I wouldn't. I didn't want something where we used to wear black for a year. Like, I didn't want to be told that, but I wanted a choice and a way that I could just do something that would signal to people and I wouldn't have to tell them.

Dr. Angela Dean: 30:01

Right. There's a documentary from WPSU. Lindsay Whissel Fenton is the producer on that. There's a scene at the beginning in which everyone is wearing these t-shirts and what will say like dad and sister and mom and brother. And they're all walking around and these are the people they've lost and everyone is avoiding them. Like there's a scene in a grocery store that I distinctly remember where this woman turns around and turns her cart the other way because she sees a grieving person. And then people tell their stories it's a documentary and by the end people are just acknowledging you've lost someone there's this grief and I think to your point people wearing black for a year my, parents come from a culture where you wear black, practically the rest of your life after you losing someone ironically I'm wearing black today but that's not why there is the signal right they're grieving we can support them a lot of cultures have that like Like you said, in the U.S., maybe it's the product of we're so many blended, cultures, but our narratives are different, right? Like, we don't acknowledge that in the same way. And we're not comfortable talking about death and dying. Some of us are.

Dr. Elizabeth Ostler: 31:13

I think there is something to that. I hadn't considered the blended culture. I think there's absolutely something to that. And I think that there's also something to our individualism as Americans, that we often think first in terms of individuality instead of community. That grief is a community that we treat it as like it's a solo thing but actually it's community when we lose one person the community suffers and that an individual touches many lives and that they're impacted I think there's also that we're not always handling things in community, and seeing things from a community lens.

Dr. Angela Dean: 31:50

Yeah for sure and I I know that that's different right for different cultures and there's this perception that eastern cultures are more collectivist and western cultures are, more individualistic but I think that's too general the more that I realize there's so many subcultures it's all that where my dad comes from it's very collectivistic even though it's a european country, but here because of that blending because people don't talk about grief, there's this fundamental misunderstanding about how we can support each other yeah or what support do you even need and how do you grieve the person that you were before Lisa died, beyond grieving her you're also grieving that self one of the first things you said when we were talking was I am fundamentally changed yeah, because of this loss yeah she wouldn't recognize this version of you.

Dr. Elizabeth Ostler: 32:46

No I don't think so there'd be a part of it where she's like Oh, you're different. And here's the thing, too, is there are gifts in grief.

Dr. Angela Dean: 32:56

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Elizabeth Ostler: 32:58

And to choose Lisa or the grief, I'm choosing Lisa.

Dr. Angela Dean: 33:02

Of course.

Dr. Elizabeth Ostler: 33:04

This is the thing I didn't know at the beginning that I know now for me. Is that grief is something I value. The way I look at it is I used to feel like grief was pressing down on me. And then I went to therapy. So in addition to losing Lisa, I lost my brother in 2022, my brother Robert. And I was doing okay as far as, emotionally. And with Lisa, like, I learned how to be in the world again. I had been in therapy on and off through my life, so I was using some tools. But then when I lost Robert, I was like, I could hold it together with one, I can't hold it together with two. Like, it's too much. Like, I can't do two. And so then I went back to therapy and started EMDR therapy. And then I also joined a grief group, sibling grief group.

Dr. Angela Dean: 34:10

Oh, wow.

Dr. Elizabeth Ostler: 34:11

In particular. Yeah. And those two things are what helped put me back together. So when Rob dies and Lisa dies, grief is here on me. And it's like pushing on my chest and I can't breathe and I can't function. and it's just suffocating me. And then through that kind of community, so just like we were talking about where society at large does not do a good job, I found a community that does and of like-minded people in my grief group and particularly that was sibling. I love that. Right? Talk about these. And that there was another person also in my grief group that also lost two siblings. And so to be able to have that mirrored back was so affirming, and then through doing the therapy as well that eventually what ended up happening is that grief moved from being on top of me to being next to me. And my parents used to have a labradoodle named, Coco and Coco was a real lover and she was the type of dog that like always was like pushing up against you and like petting her and petting her And for me, grief has taken on this image of Coco that it just lives right next to me and it like pushes into me sometimes. And sometimes I push into grief and this is where I like it and this is where I want it. I don't want it on me, but I want it next to me because my grief is a love story. And if I lose this relationship, it would feel like another loss, another way of losing them.

Dr. Angela Dean: 35:52

That's a beautiful way of thinking about grief. Yeah. Do you want to introduce Robert to us as well?

Dr. Elizabeth Ostler: 35:59

Yeah, Rob. Because Rob and I were five years apart, we always had a sibling relationship. We were never quite friends. Rob was a real eccentric. He loved skateboarding. He was really good at it. He loved Bruce Lee and would do a nunchucks. In fact, this necklace that I'm wearing is actually nunchucks. And when he passed some friends gave it to me and so it's my way of holding on to him in time so he so he loved Bruce Lee loved it was very good at his dumb checks he also was very smart but not disciplined, he like dropped out of high school, and he was always like trying to invent things and imagine things he got into this way of using magnets to levitate things and this scientific brain. That's really interesting. He loved movies. So he was always calling me and talking about movies and quoting movies. He was so funny as well. Yeah. Yeah. Rob was a good time.

Dr. Angela Dean: 37:07

Sounds like you had definitely a different relationship, a little less parentification of that sibling.

Dr. Elizabeth Ostler: 37:14

Yeah. I mean, there was still some parentification with Rob, but it wasn't quite as complicated.

Dr. Angela Dean: 37:21

Uh-huh.

Dr. Elizabeth Ostler: 37:22

Yeah, because then it felt more just like older sister, older sister and younger brother.

Dr. Angela Dean: 37:26

Uh-huh. And you lost him in 2022.

Dr. Elizabeth Ostler: 37:31

Yes.

Dr. Angela Dean: 37:31

As you're trying to already come to terms with losing Lisa.

Dr. Elizabeth Ostler: 37:36

His death was a real surprise. We didn't see it coming. He also struggled in addiction and had been experiencing homelessness for a couple of years. And then had gotten sober and had gotten housing and was working. And so we were really hopeful. And he got COVID.

Dr. Angela Dean: 37:58

Oh.

Dr. Elizabeth Ostler: 37:58

And it wasn't treated. We already knew. And so at first we thought it was a stroke, and then we learned it was COVID. And so it was really hard.

Dr. Angela Dean: 38:07

I'm sorry to hear that. And both of those seemed very stigmatized. You had this hope for both of them to be doing better.

Dr. Elizabeth Ostler: 38:15

Yeah.

Dr. Angela Dean: 38:15

And then you lost them both.

Dr. Elizabeth Ostler: 38:16

Yeah. Yeah. The thing, too, in their deaths, because particularly the last few years of their lives were very hard with their addiction, And I did have to draw some really strong boundaries with them. And so essentially the boundary was, if you are in active addiction, don't reach out to me. Because I was like, I can't take calls in the middle of the night. I'm not going to give you money, right? Like all of these things. Don't reach out to me. But if you're working on getting sober, reach out to me. So there were long periods where we weren't talking. With both of them, with Rob and Lisa. And then it got complicated because sometimes they would then like drug share. So it was really hard on so many levels. And then even as I said at the beginning, dynamics were still playing out where I'm like, no, I'm the responsible one. And Rob has two girls and it's just like, are these kids? And so I'm like, am I now going to have to take on more than being an aunt to these kids and you know just trying to figure that out, so yeah particularly the last few years of both of their lives it was hard to be a relationship and it was hard and I loved them and I wanted them to be sober and I wanted them to have full lives, and they both had so many talents and gifts to give and it was just heartbreaking to watch them, not develop them and utilize them to thrive, but in their deaths and I do believe in an afterlife, I am a religious person I believe that they live on, and I believe that those relationships are continuing now and that I'm still in relationship with them and that I can be in a more intimate relationship with them now than I could when they were struggling in their addictions Yeah.

Dr. Angela Dean: 40:19

What do those relationships look like now for you?

Dr. Elizabeth Ostler: 40:23

Yeah, they're different because they're different people.

Dr. Angela Dean: 40:28

Of course.

Dr. Elizabeth Ostler: 40:28

But there is a commonality. I think for me, it was a process to understand that they are more than they were here. And this idea that the relationship continues on was given to me at Lisa's funeral. I wouldn't have to wait until I died for us to then reconnect. They're like, oh no, now. And so I could get a sense of her and feel her. And then there was this moment when I was reading this thing and I was like, oh, I wish Lisa was alive. I think this could help her. And she could understand this thing, like this concept. And so I was lamenting that she wasn't alive and that this could help. And then I thought, Liz, she knows more than you know. Not only does she know this, she knows so much more. And it shifted in me. Now I look at her as more of my teacher and my guide in this life than a sister that was struggling and needed help. But I now seek after her in that way. And then in writing this play, I felt so close to her. We get to choose how we interpret things.

Dr. Angela Dean: 41:41

Of course.

Dr. Elizabeth Ostler: 41:42

And so I'm choosing that certain feelings or certain message, you know, like even if somebody was to say something to me and I'd be like, there's Lisa's in that or Rob's in that, that it looks a lot like that. And Rob is a lot more joy. When I think of Rob, I think of a lot more joy and Rob reminds me to have fun in this life.

Dr. Angela Dean: 42:08

Sounds like with all of this grief, even with the grief as the guide and the companion, that you need that reminder.

Dr. Elizabeth Ostler: 42:15

Yeah, exactly.

Dr. Angela Dean: 42:18

Is he present in SisterPlay?

Dr. Elizabeth Ostler: 42:21

He is in the sense of that all of my family members are in it. And so, yeah, there is a character that's a younger brother.

Dr. Angela Dean: 42:31

Yeah. What more do you want to say about the play? I know that it's coming out soon.

Dr. Elizabeth Ostler: 42:36

Yeah. So I developed it last year. So I wrote it. It took me six weeks to write it.

Dr. Angela Dean: 42:43

That's it?

Dr. Elizabeth Ostler: 42:43

Yes.

Dr. Angela Dean: 42:44

That's impressive.

Dr. Elizabeth Ostler: 42:45

Well, thank you. But I had been marinating about it for years. So the development looks like doing different readings. So readings just so I can hear it. A reading in Utah over the summer so that my family and the attorney could see it. And they all knew I was writing it, but I didn't want to get too far in for them to be like, what are you doing? Like, we are devastated, you know, like, what have you done? And so it was important to me that they knew what I was doing, and particularly Lisa's children, that they were okay with what I was doing.

Dr. Angela Dean: 43:21

How old are they?

Dr. Elizabeth Ostler: 43:22

The two oldest are in their early 20s. And then her youngest is 15.

Dr. Angela Dean: 43:26

Okay. So they were pretty little when she died.

Dr. Elizabeth Ostler: 43:28

Yeah. But everyone was very supportive of the play. And so that was really good. And that gave me courage. And then I've continued to do some readings for different audiences to see how it was landing. I would do rewrites. And then I felt very strongly that I want to produce it in New York City and Salt Lake City. And then it was produced in at least one of those cities this year as part of the 10-year anniversary. And so because I live in New York City, it's easier for me to develop things here in New York City and then take it to Salt Lake. So that's what's happening. So it's going up this year in September. September 1st will be the first performance, which is my mother's birthday. Yeah, so I feel something special in that. And actually it ends September 13th, which is my dad's birthday. That was not by design. It just happened.

Dr. Angela Dean: 44:22

That's maybe Lisa's work.

Dr. Elizabeth Ostler: 44:24

Thank you. I think so too. And Lisa was a real numbers person. Like she's always reading in the numbers of things. I'm like, this is 100% Lisa. Yeah. And so right now I'm fundraising for the play and starting to build the creative team. I'm holding auditions in two weeks. So it's coming along and it's really exciting.

Dr. Angela Dean: 44:46

Yeah. And that's in New York City. So we'll share that all in the show notes on the webpage.

Dr. Elizabeth Ostler: 44:53

Yeah.

Dr. Angela Dean: 44:54

Of course. I do want to come back to this thing that you mentioned. I'm curious about the sibling support group. And I know of one that is in New York. And unfortunately, because of licensing and all of the things, they are not able to do work outside of New York the way that a lot of our licenses are. So I'm curious if you wouldn't mind sharing what the support group was that you found. That was so helpful. COPE.

Dr. Elizabeth Ostler: 45:18

COPE.

Dr. Angela Dean: 45:19

Yes. Is it Cope? Is that yours? That is on my website. No, it's not mine, but, there is a fellow in thanatology, which is some of the letters after my name, who leads the sibling group. And I had just put that on the website. Is it Rashida? Yes.

Dr. Elizabeth Ostler: 45:35

I love, no, Rashida leads my group.

Dr. Angela Dean: 45:37

Yes, that's amazing.

Dr. Elizabeth Ostler: 45:39

I love Rashida.

Dr. Angela Dean: 45:40

Yes, she's on the website.

Dr. Elizabeth Ostler: 45:43

She's the best.

Dr. Angela Dean: 45:44

Yes. I will send her a link to this episode as well. Thank you. That's very exciting.

Dr. Elizabeth Ostler: 45:50

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, and it has been, that has been a real tether.

Dr. Angela Dean: 45:56

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Elizabeth Ostler: 45:57

A community. And we created our group. Because it's like with any type of group like this, like what happens in the group stays in the group.

Dr. Angela Dean: 46:06

Yes, of course.

Dr. Elizabeth Ostler: 46:07

COPE is really lovely, too, of trying to build a larger community so they'll have things like picnics. They'll have like walks to raise money for COPE, things like that to help, you know, bring the community outside of our room and into a larger space. But our little group has a WhatsApp chat that is just active.

Dr. Angela Dean: 46:30

I love that.

Dr. Elizabeth Ostler: 46:31

And it's so wonderful. And we share things like recognizing anniversaries. So birthdays, death anniversaries, but also like one of our members just got a huge promotion at work and we're all like, yay!

Dr. Angela Dean: 46:45

That's so fantastic.

Dr. Elizabeth Ostler: 46:47

Yeah. And it's been a really beautiful, beautiful thing. And it's to be part of that and just to have people that know and you don't have to say the things is really helpful because there's so much in grief when I'm interacting with others, particularly people who have lost a sibling. There's almost like an educational part to it that can get exhausting.

Dr. Angela Dean: 47:11

Yes.

Dr. Elizabeth Ostler: 47:12

And so when you don't have to do that part, at least in one place, it's really nice.

Dr. Angela Dean: 47:18

Yeah. It's part of the mission of the Broken Pack is that we are educating.

Dr. Elizabeth Ostler: 47:23

Yes.

Dr. Angela Dean: 47:24

Not just siblings, but others, yeah. There's some new things coming out that we'll be doing too.

Dr. Elizabeth Ostler: 47:30

Oh, that's wonderful. And then the name of your podcast, just like, it brings tears to my eyes in a way like, that is exactly what it is. It is a broken pack. I am a part of a broken pack. How did you come up with that name?

Dr. Angela Dean: 47:46

Yeah. Thank you for asking that. And thank you for the feedback on that. My brother loved wolves. So this is actually a continuing bond with my brother in a lot of ways. I love them. And when I was creating this organization and the podcast, it's a whole long story. It is on the website. But thank you for asking. It was about he loved wolves. I learned this. I looked it up. There's some research on it. I don't know entirely, 100% certain if it's all true, but there is some research suggesting that wolves, the packs are structured with, the parent wolves and then the sibling mates, that if one of the pack members dies, the wolves grieve for a period, weeks to months, and that their howls change, the tone of the howls change, and they go back to the site where the pack mate. Died which is usually a sibling and so that really connected with my brother and the story of loss and so I that pack structure is never the same the family structure and so yes that's where that comes from it's a broken, pack structure yeah.

Dr. Elizabeth Ostler: 48:54

That's it's so beautiful and just deeply resonates in my bones.

Dr. Angela Dean: 49:00

Thank you because even.

Dr. Elizabeth Ostler: 49:01

Like what we're doing right now is that you have journeyed with me. We're in two different packs, but our two packs have come to where the sights of where my, siblings have passed and that witnessing and that opportunity to even talk about them is so meaningful and that's one of the things, that with both my siblings from the beginning I was like we will talk about them it will not be forgotten and so I think sometimes even with my family, I mean any moment I'd have I'd be like Lisa Lisa Robert Robert they'd be like yes you know they're like yeah I'm bored too we're gonna talk about them but there was no way because like I had heard people talk about where family structures just wouldn't talk about that person or whatever. I was like, under no circumstances is that our story or what's happening here. And then, too, because they've left behind kids.

Dr. Angela Dean: 49:58

Right.

Dr. Elizabeth Ostler: 49:59

That any time I'm with their kids, I'm telling stories. If they do something that reminds me of their parent, I tell them, you know, to just make them still in the present and not forgotten. And that's also part of this play, is I don't want Lisa to be forgotten, and I don't want Lisa just to be a statistic.

Dr. Angela Dean: 50:18

Right. And what a beautiful way to also advocate on her behalf.

Dr. Elizabeth Ostler: 50:22

Yeah.

Dr. Angela Dean: 50:23

How has your family structure changed or your relationships with your other sister or your parents?

Dr. Elizabeth Ostler: 50:28

Yeah. My sister, Laura, also struggled with substance abuse. So all three of my siblings struggled. That's a whole other podcast. But Laura, it's been interesting during the pandemic. She went into a program called the Other Side Academy. It's an amazing program that helps people who are dealing with addiction, who've had trouble with going to jail, like all of these things. And provides a structure in a community in order to get it together. That's their energy and their language around that. And it's really intense. So essentially what happens is to become part of this program, you commit to at least two years. And in those two years, you have contact with nobody outside of the community.

Dr. Angela Dean: 51:15

Oh, that's intense.

Dr. Elizabeth Ostler: 51:16

It's very intense, except for you can write letters to your parents if they're your biological parents. and they raised you.

Dr. Angela Dean: 51:26

Oh, wow.

Dr. Elizabeth Ostler: 51:26

So it's really intense. And at first, we were like, is Laura joining a cult?

Dr. Angela Dean: 51:31

I was just wondering.

Dr. Elizabeth Ostler: 51:33

And then honestly, our family was like, if this is a cult and it gets her sober, okay, we're good. At this point, we'll take whatever. They're not a cult. They're not a cult. But basically what they say is, it isn't just about getting sober. It's about changing the wiring in your brain. And that takes time. And that often what happens and I saw this repeatedly with my siblings is that they could get sober but if they didn't have a strong community around them and the family is hard you can't just rely on the family to be that because there's so much that has happened, right like you can't like be the community while you're also rebuilding trust, The Other Side Academy if anyone who's listening who's like, somebody I love is struggling I'm struggling look them up they are amazing I'll put the link in the show notes yeah as well Laura did it so after two years she could start having um short phone calls with me, and then um visits and so she ended up staying in the program four years, she graduated and is now a staff member oh so she's been a staff member just over a year, we have rebuilt our relationship and we talk a lot about about Lisa and Rob, and how we're the only ones. And we're like, how did we go from four to two? And for me, with Laura, because I thought I'd lost all three of them. And I thought with Laura, it's just a matter of time now. Because then I knew siblings die. This is the other thing, right? You know people die, but when you lose it, then you're like, no, siblings die. Then I was like, how is there just one? How am I going to be the only one? And then when Laura did all this really hard work, profound work, I got her back. Mm-hmm. And it also helped me feel closer to Rob and Lisa. And it helped to go back to this pack idea. So I wasn't a lone wolf anymore. At least I had her. And then in having her, she holds the memories with me.

Dr. Angela Dean: 53:45

Yes.

Dr. Elizabeth Ostler: 53:45

And so it has brought us closer together, but our grief is very different. And that's been the other thing. And particularly because Laura was using with them. And she holds a lot of different kind of guilt than I do But we can talk to each other about that And be a place for each other as we navigate our griefs.

Dr. Angela Dean: 54:06

Yeah Yeah How about your parents? Are they both still living?

Dr. Elizabeth Ostler: 54:11

Yeah, they are I've always been close to my mom And it's made me all the closer Mm-hmm, When Rob died, I was one of the first people she called. And so to be able to be that place for her was a dark moment. It was a really dark moment. But there's just a way to knit you together in a different way. For my parents to have to bury two children, yeah, the dynamics are different. My relationship with my dad is complicated, and the deaths further complicated them. But my mom and I I think are closer because at times it felt like it was just her and I they were trying to hold this family together yeah thank you for.

Dr. Angela Dean: 54:59

That did you want to read anything from SisterPlay.

Dr. Elizabeth Ostler: 55:03

I did pull a couple of pieces because I was like I'm gonna see how it feels in in here yeah, it's up to you you want to read anything yeah I think what I if you don't mind, what I'd like to do is ask you what—I'm going to give you two choices.

Dr. Angela Dean: 55:21

Okay. I love this.

Dr. Elizabeth Ostler: 55:23

Okay, great. So the way the play is structured—, is there's basically three spines that are woven together. So one is the events of the jail. So what happens in the jail. And I have moved forward with the idea that Lisa is portrayed by a puppet. And part of that is because, like we had talked about earlier, I do believe she was dehumanized. And there's something really beautiful about puppetry is it requires the audience to give the puppet their humanity.

Dr. Angela Dean: 55:55

Yes, I love that.

Dr. Elizabeth Ostler: 55:56

Yeah, and so everyone else is human. Lisa's the only puppet, but Lisa's the only character that has a name. Everyone else is in relationship to her. So younger brother, younger sister, mom, dad, attorney, these types of things just to help reinforce this idea of dehumanization.

Dr. Angela Dean: 56:19

Right, and I think the paradox of you giving her a name also gives her the humanity.

Dr. Elizabeth Ostler: 56:25

Yes exactly thank you thank you for seeing that so that's the first slide is Lisa is Lisa and then there's flashbacks, to show Lisa more well around it right like the different parts of Lisa to give more context to how we got here, and then the other side which I actually didn't know what's going to happen until I was writing the play is older sister which is a version of me and is working through the grief, and trying to understand what happened because there was a moment when I I was like, shit, I'm a character in this play. Like, oh, jeez, I didn't know that. So it's that. So with that context, I have older sister. I have a piece from older sister when she just talks about Lisa at the end. Lisa's past reflecting on how Lisa died. So there's a little passage there. Or there's mom. I wrote a scene where... My mom is saying goodbye to Lisa in the ICU. And so they're both short little monologues. So which one would you rather hear?

Dr. Angela Dean: 57:33

I would love to hear them both. But given the nature of our podcast and our audience, I'm going to go with.

Dr. Elizabeth Ostler: 57:37

You should do this simply.

Dr. Angela Dean: 57:38

Yes.

Dr. Elizabeth Ostler: 57:39

Well, you just have to come see the play.

Dr. Angela Dean: 57:41

I plan to. I totally plan to.

Dr. Elizabeth Ostler: 57:44

Excuse me. Okay. Let's see here. Actually, can I share a little story first? Absolutely. Before to give more context?

Dr. Angela Dean: 57:54

Yes.

Dr. Elizabeth Ostler: 57:55

Lisa, this is a scene in the play, but it's earlier in the play, and so this is a callback, so let's help, is there was one day when Lisa was, talking to me, and she's like, your hands. Because Lisa usually had her nails done, and so there was a day her nails weren't done, and I never have my nails done. And so she was like, your hands. She's like, we have the same hands. I'm like, yeah, whatever. Okay. And she's like, no. We have the same hands. And I'm like, yeah, okay. She's like, you are not listening to me. Like, put your hands out. And she goes, see, I don't have nails on. And when I, our hands, we have the same hands. And I was like, okay, yeah, that's cool.

Dr. Angela Dean: 58:36

Did this happen?

Dr. Elizabeth Ostler: 58:37

Yes, that's in real life. That really happened.

Dr. Angela Dean: 58:40

And I was like.

Dr. Elizabeth Ostler: 58:41

Okay. Now, so just so you have that. Now I'm going to share a piece from the play.

Dr. Angela Dean: 58:48

Okay.

Dr. Elizabeth Ostler: 58:49

Does it that helps? I'm not surprised that they were able to restart Lisa's heart, or that she died ultimately from heart failure. It's poetic, actually, in a way. It's always been about the heart with Lisa. So much love, such recklessly giving with that heart. Lisa's easy to love and so frustrating to love at the same time. She was a drowning woman giving away her life jacket. I would tell her, you need to keep your life jacket. And she would say, yes, that's right, I'm going to keep my life jacket. But she never did. She always gave it away. She so rarely gave that magnanimous love to herself. She never really knew her worth. She was 37 when she died. Time has the audacity to keep going, but she, her body. How would she have aged? I get older, but she stays 37. We were supposed to grow old together, all of us. I don't know, but my hands, we have the same hands.

Dr. Angela Dean: 1:00:08

Thank you. That gave me chills. Thank you for reading that. Before I ask you my last question, is there anything else that you want to share about sibling loss or things that you found helpful?

Dr. Elizabeth Ostler: 1:00:22

Yeah, I think what I hear this often when I listen to podcasts such as yours about the sibling is that it is often neglected and overlooked, this loss.

Dr. Angela Dean: 1:00:36

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Elizabeth Ostler: 1:00:39

But to anyone who has lost a sibling, that there's a new kind of pack. That there's those of us who've lost a sibling that we know and that you're now part of one of us. And so, that not everyone gets it, but we get it. And to help to find us. Because we're looking for you. And that you can be part of our pack.

Dr. Angela Dean: 1:01:05

Thank you for that. Yeah.

Dr. Elizabeth Ostler: 1:01:08

Certainly yeah certainly.

Dr. Angela Dean: 1:01:10

Why we are here.

Dr. Elizabeth Ostler: 1:01:11

Yeah I mean what you're doing is exactly that you're making the call right yeah join us.

Dr. Angela Dean: 1:01:18

So what are your favorite memories of Lisa and Rob if you want to share.

Dr. Elizabeth Ostler: 1:01:24

Yeah I get blended so much with Lisa I think what I miss the most is just our long conversations on the phone and we just, talk about life and get really philosophical about things she loved Dr. Dyer Dr. Wayne Dyer, she loved him and so she's always with his quotes and his way of seeing things and she would just be like Dr. Dyer this Dr. Dyer that and in fact he had passed away a few, years or so before she did, and she took it really hard. And when she passed, my family and I were like, oh, I think Lisa, when she got to heaven, was like, you know, met the divine, met Jesus, and was like, you know, hugs and all those things, saw some family members, and then was like, okay, this has been really great, but where's Dr. Dyer? Yeah, just her way of being in the world and giving. I miss our talks. Yeah. Rob. I'm just going to do it in this way. It's actually not a memory of Rob when he was alive. It's in this relationship that I'm building with him now. I take my nieces and nephews on a trip when they graduate from high school, just the two of us, so we can have some time together. His oldest daughter, Isabel, was graduating in 24, and she's a big Swiftie. And so we were traveling to Europe and it turned out that, the Eras Tour was going to be near where we were oh well and so I was like oh my gosh do I do this and so I looked into it and the tickets were far more than I would ever spend on any show for myself but I was, like I think I'm going to do this I talked to a couple Swifties in my life and they were like you should 100% do this, and I remember just sitting at the computer and being like, that's a lot of dollars before I hit pay. Should I do this? And I just said, Rob, I think I'm taking your daughter to the Eras Tour. And my whole body, just like this influx of energy and just like so much fun. And I could just hear him laughing and just being like, yeah, you are like, hell yeah, Pip, like, you know, like in some ways I'm like, that it's just, and like that type of energy and the memories of Rob are the things that I want to hold on to. Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Angela Dean: 1:04:00

I like that.

Dr. Elizabeth Ostler: 1:04:01

And we did go and we had the best time.

Dr. Angela Dean: 1:04:03

Oh, fantastic. Worth it. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for sharing all of this today and I look forward to talking to you more about SisterPlay in the future.

Dr. Elizabeth Ostler: 1:04:12

Yeah, thank you. I appreciate this too. Thank you so much for what you're doing and for this podcast. You're welcome. It's not a lot to me in my grief.

Dr. Angela Dean: 1:04:20

Thank you. I'm glad to hear that.

Episode Outro: 1:04:23

Thank you so much for listening. Our theme song was written by joe Mylward and brian dean and performed by Joe Mylward. t he broken pack is more than a podcast visit thebrokenpack.com to sign up for wild grief our newsletter and to explore everything else we're building if today's episode resonated you can send us fan mail or support the show using the links in the show notes, information on wild grief our social media resources and our guests can be found wherever you get your podcasts please like follow subscribe and share thanks again Thank you.